From thomas at tifozi.net Tue Jan 1 08:33:38 2008 From: thomas at tifozi.net (Thomas Andersson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:33:38 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] RoF and Firegroups References: <006401c84bd0$29bfde20$9997e353@dawnrazor> <6.2.0.14.2.20071231124908.021709f0@pop.mindspring.com> <009901c84bf4$3018bc50$9997e353@dawnrazor> <20071231214142.YVHA9878.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@Sparky.alltel.net> Message-ID: <000a01c84c94$0fea1910$9997e353@dawnrazor> Hi! Me again with a newb questions ;) I have a firegroup spread over 4 hexes anchored at each end with light MGs. The whole group fires prep fire and MGs retain their RoF. For the second shot, do they still fire as a FG (combine the 2 Mgs into one attack) or do they now have to fire separately as all the MMCs inbetween them have exhausted their RoF now? (i.e does the RoF simulate an extended burst during teh original fire attack or separate attacks imediatedly after it). Thanks again Thomas From swfancher at mindspring.com Tue Jan 1 09:10:01 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 12:10:01 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] RoF and Firegroups In-Reply-To: <000a01c84c94$0fea1910$9997e353@dawnrazor> References: <006401c84bd0$29bfde20$9997e353@dawnrazor> <6.2.0.14.2.20071231124908.021709f0@pop.mindspring.com> <009901c84bf4$3018bc50$9997e353@dawnrazor> <20071231214142.YVHA9878.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@Sparky.alltel.net> <000a01c84c94$0fea1910$9997e353@dawnrazor> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080101120406.0215b610@pop.mindspring.com> Hello Thomas! It sounds like you are having some fun! :-) The LMGs have to fire separately after the first attack. Note that the LMGs do not _have_ to attack again immediately though - you can resolve your attacks in any order that you choose. So you could wait to see the outcome of shots from other units before using the LMG RoF. In this case, mark the MMCs as having Prep Fired but leave the LMGs above the PF counter to indicate that they are still free to fire. If you think of it in this example, the LMGs are firing _again_, and perhaps even at a different target. So the idea of an "extended burst" is not as accurate as thinking of it as a second, unrelated attack. Be well. Seth At 11:33 AM 1/1/2008, Thomas Andersson wrote: >Hi! > >Me again with a newb questions ;) > >I have a firegroup spread over 4 hexes anchored at each end with light MGs. >The whole group fires prep fire and MGs retain their RoF. For the second >shot, do they still fire as a FG (combine the 2 Mgs into one attack) or do >they now have to fire separately as all the MMCs inbetween them have >exhausted their RoF now? (i.e does the RoF simulate an extended burst during >teh original fire attack or separate attacks imediatedly after it). > >Thanks again >Thomas > > >_______________________________________________ >Aslml mailing list >Aslml at lists.aslml.net >http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From thomas at tifozi.net Tue Jan 1 09:32:13 2008 From: thomas at tifozi.net (Thomas Andersson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 18:32:13 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] RoF and Firegroups References: <006401c84bd0$29bfde20$9997e353@dawnrazor> <6.2.0.14.2.20071231124908.021709f0@pop.mindspring.com> <009901c84bf4$3018bc50$9997e353@dawnrazor> <20071231214142.YVHA9878.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@Sparky.alltel.net> <000a01c84c94$0fea1910$9997e353@dawnrazor> <6.2.0.14.2.20080101120406.0215b610@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <001701c84c9c$3edc1900$9997e353@dawnrazor> Seth W Fancher wrote: > It sounds like you are having some fun! :-) I am, the russians, not so much ;) > The LMGs have to fire separately after the first attack. Note that > the LMGs do not _have_ to attack again immediately though - you can > resolve your attacks in any order that you choose. So you could wait > to see the outcome of shots from other units before using the LMG > RoF. In this case, mark the MMCs as having Prep Fired but leave the > LMGs above the PF counter to indicate that they are still free to > fire. The original attack broke teh target and a secondary leaderlead MMG attack caused causalty reduction so not much left for the LMGs to do realy, but 1 6 attack would still ahve bee nicer than 2 3 attacks. > If you think of it in this example, the LMGs are firing _again_, and > perhaps even at a different target. So the idea of an "extended > burst" is not as accurate as thinking of it as a second, unrelated > attack. Ok, got that, starting to feal the awesome potential in HMGs :X (bring on my MG42's!) Best Wishes Thomas From thomas at tifozi.net Tue Jan 1 10:10:15 2008 From: thomas at tifozi.net (Thomas Andersson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:10:15 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] RoF and Firegroups References: <006401c84bd0$29bfde20$9997e353@dawnrazor> <6.2.0.14.2.20071231124908.021709f0@pop.mindspring.com> <009901c84bf4$3018bc50$9997e353@dawnrazor> <20071231214142.YVHA9878.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@Sparky.alltel.net> <000a01c84c94$0fea1910$9997e353@dawnrazor> <6.2.0.14.2.20080101120406.0215b610@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <001d01c84ca1$8f7c1ae0$9997e353@dawnrazor> Seth W Fancher wrote: > It sounds like you are having some fun! :-) So far what I planned for the scenario have worked out very well with a lot of lucky rolls! For fun I grabbed the screen after the end of turn 3 of 6 (http://www.tifozi.net/S2_e3.png). The Russians have been very unlucky and the reinforcements they are waiting for hasn't shown up. Right now everything is broken for them except for one HS with a LMG. My plan was to have a a fireline along the north edge anchored with MGs to tie up troops and cause casualties. While doing this my ingeneers moved down the eastern flank using smoke, DCs and FTs to work their way down the east side taking one of the 3 target buildings in the progress. At the same time a second lighter firegroup moved down the lightly defended west flank completing the pincer move and taking the second target building of 3. Having completed this successfully without interference from reinforcements the main fireline (who by now have broken or killed their opponents) started breaking up moving south. The west part of thr group moves south to help hold target building in case of reinforcements there, the mid part stays with the MMG in current location cutting the map in two by the south going road to prevent easy movements of reinforcements while the easter part of the fire line moves down to help clear the final target building. The southermost ingeneers stays put to block entrance of reinforcements while the other of the eatern ingeneers while move in to help clear final building and take out what opposition remains. Not a good day for Rodina, but Das Vatherland should be pleased. I think that the russians could ahve made a better stand if their reinforcements had arrived by now so that they could have turned the large traget building into a stronghold... (As it is now I doubt the reinforcements will make any difference at all). (mind you, this is SK rules so no concealment and a lot of other stuff which would have made it a whole lot harder for the agressor). Best Wishes Thomas From daveolie at eastlink.ca Tue Jan 1 22:37:30 2008 From: daveolie at eastlink.ca (David Olie) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:37:30 -0400 Subject: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? References: <14217266.1199126196391.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01ac01c84d0a$9a3b5310$7f7bd718@SR1820NX> Arlen wrote: > This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK rules? I > do > not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there is no difference. I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find it remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. > I > just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of the > scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I assume the > only > reason for this is to promote their other products. No problem there I > guess. But in reality why would I want to buy starter kits if I am already > playing asl to the point where I am buying Action Pack 3? Why would i now > backtrack and buy a starter kit? I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several reasons: 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among my friends. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. 2. To have a simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less cumbersome to carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend (and full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" role for me much like "Up Front" used to do. > If this is only to promote and increase > sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter kits > are > for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct and that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This might be part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything that has the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my personal reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point is that most full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now considered part of the official "canon" available to scenario designers. > If someone who > owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck since I > assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be owned. hollow > legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the only one here that > sees > a problems with this. I love the hobby but...do they really need to make > this so fustrating? I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the scenarios require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board is slated for Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. Considering I've only been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not losing any sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. YMMV. David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Tue Jan 1 23:26:54 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 01:26:54 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? References: <14217266.1199126196391.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <01ac01c84d0a$9a3b5310$7f7bd718@SR1820NX> Message-ID: I didn't know you spoke for most ASL players. You certainly don't speak for me. Me and the people I play with have no intention of buying the starter kits. However, thanks for setting me straight with what most people think. The fact is MMP/AH have done this from the beginning. There is not one module that I know of that does not require another module or purchase of some kind. Beyond Valor was close but you also needed the rule book. Do not get me wrong here I love this hobby and will play for as long as I can imagine. And I do understand the business strategy. However if MMP is not going to make these items available then its kind of self defeating. That was my point. I would not and do not have a problem with there method so much as their inability to supply us with what we need to play. I mean look at the website. I believe there is more out of print then there is in print and boards are not even availble period. Not to mention campaigns. I've tried to get people interested in the game too and once they find out that most of the material isn't even available for purchase they shake there heads and pull out there axis and allies boards. I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I think MMP overall has done a great job in publishing new material. But I guess I do not need to address the ridiculousness of offering Few Returned but yet Hollow Legions is out of print. Granted, I know that if someone was interested in buying AP3 then obviously they wold already have HL. My point is if someone wanted to enter this hobby I am pretty confident they would become very disenchanted very quick. Not being able to play any N.Afrika scenarios. No pacific theatre which is half the war. No southern europe scenarios. the only thing feasible for the beginner is eastern and western front containing no british troops. Not to mention no campaigns. So even though they have done good in producing new material - in my opinion a very poor job in supporting the hobby overall. Because of this I refuse to buy "starter-kits." I'm ranting now but I'll tell you. I think that if Curt has no intention of ever publishing RB, KFP, BTF BRT ever again then I do not see any reason why MMP should even be in this business. It's fustrating because I do not want to see the entire hobby go away but yet we are stuck with their half-ass approach. I say all this and yet I just purchased Operation Veritable even though I already know there is probably no way I'll be able to play it anytime soon. I just wanted it because I know that once it sells out - it will go away forever. But then there's the whole ebay thing - dont get me started. I just saw AP1&2 for sale for like $350. Thats outrageous, but what else are people to do if they want the overrun and OBA flow charts? side note - i have seen mounted board 52 for sale on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:IT&item=140194215360&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI are these fakes or were they sold by MMP at sometime? does anyone know? I'm done - sorry for the rant, I know I'm not the only one. Arlen Vanek Fort Worth ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Olie" To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Carl D. Fago" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:37 AM Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > Arlen wrote: > > >> This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK rules? I >> do >> not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there is no >> difference. > > I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not > changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find it > remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. > >> I >> just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of the >> scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I assume the >> only >> reason for this is to promote their other products. No problem there I >> guess. But in reality why would I want to buy starter kits if I am >> already >> playing asl to the point where I am buying Action Pack 3? Why would i now >> backtrack and buy a starter kit? > > I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several reasons: > 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among my friends. > Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. > 2. To have a simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less > cumbersome to carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend > (and full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the > local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and > drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" role > for me much like "Up Front" used to do. > >> If this is only to promote and increase >> sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter kits >> are >> for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. > > Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. > That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the > surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct and > that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This might be > part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything that has > the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my personal > reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point is that most > full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now considered part > of the official "canon" available to scenario designers. > >> If someone who >> owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck since I >> assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be owned. hollow >> legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the only one here that >> sees >> a problems with this. I love the hobby but...do they really need to make >> this so fustrating? > > I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the scenarios > require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board is slated for > Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. Considering I've only > been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not losing any > sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. YMMV. > > David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie > > From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 06:40:30 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:40:30 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <000f01c84d22$be9287c0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Message-ID: George, Obviously you misunderstood what I was saying. I do give MMP high marks for what they have done. However, I give them low marks overall. I am very thankful for what they have done. However I certainly doubt that 4 new players will keep them in business long. I must humbly disagee with my right proper gentleman when he says that no other orginization could support the hobby. All I want is all of the core modules available at one time. Surely thats not too much to ask. It seems to me that limited supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at the retail price of Journal 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but will cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay $50 or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? Too suggest that NO other orginization could better is simply short sighted and silly. They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the campaings. Based on that alone why would a new player want to get into this hobby? Please explain. I am only trying to be realistic. And yes, I have set out to aquire everything that has ASL on it. But like I said I refuse to purchase starter kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new players. As you and David has stated most of these were purchased by current ASL'ers and maybe 4 other people.I would rather see Red Barricades and Code of Bushido available. And please would someone please tell me the logic behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I the only person who is interested in N Africa? Couldnt the time and effort behind this been more wisely spent elsewhere? Arlen ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bates" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:34 AM Subject: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) Arlen, David certainly spoke for me. I have all three Starter Kits. I and many others that I buy for want all ASL product. It's also nice to have more of some very commonly-used components (M4A3s, Soviet rifle squads, 2-pdrs, etc...). Also, as a mediocre ASL player the rule booklets and condensed play serve as a fine reminder of key points of the game that I have not properly grasped. I sometimes find SK scenarios a tad dry as it is not possible to do some things using the truncated ruleset. However, David is right when he says that it's great for a quick "beer & pretzels" match (the original aim of SL...?) and it has also allowed our Yokohama Group to add 4 new players over 2006 - 2007. I'd really like to ask you to re-evaluate your attitude toward MMP. Their support of the hobby and dedication to quality is far higher than Avalon Hill ever showed. You should also remember that without their intervention no new product or product re-releases would be taking place. Hasbro appeared to have no intention of continuing publication of the ASL line. You can fault their organization and limited bandwidth, but I think you should remember that you are seeing the result of the efforts of 2 core leaders, 3-4 employees and a cadre of volunteer honchos, designers and playtesters. Given the size of the market, I don't think there is any other type of organization that could continue to support the hobby. As I've said here before, rather than whining about the effort that Curt, Brian, Perry and their associates give us, we should be worrying about how to sustain the hobby should we ever lose them. Our position is really quite frail. Given that, I recommend that you lay your hands on every available piece of ASL kit you come across. Barring flood, pestilence or war, there will be more coming along shortly, and there is plenty to enjoy now as it is. I recommend you try J106 "Marders Not Martyrs" as MMP generously included board "v" for you in Journal 7. Cheers! George Bates Yokohama, Japan Gaming by the Bay 1st Sunday of each month. Swim on over! We'll leave the light on for you. Now in progress: J110 "Prelude To Spring" German vs. David Olie 24 "The Mad Minute" US vs. Lee Fehlberg -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:27 PM To: David Olie; aslml at lists.aslml.net Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? I didn't know you spoke for most ASL players. You certainly don't speak for me. Me and the people I play with have no intention of buying the starter kits. However, thanks for setting me straight with what most people think. The fact is MMP/AH have done this from the beginning. There is not one module that I know of that does not require another module or purchase of some kind. Beyond Valor was close but you also needed the rule book. Do not get me wrong here I love this hobby and will play for as long as I can imagine. And I do understand the business strategy. However if MMP is not going to make these items available then its kind of self defeating. That was my point. I would not and do not have a problem with there method so much as their inability to supply us with what we need to play. I mean look at the website. I believe there is more out of print then there is in print and boards are not even availble period. Not to mention campaigns. I've tried to get people interested in the game too and once they find out that most of the material isn't even available for purchase they shake there heads and pull out there axis and allies boards. I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I think MMP overall has done a great job in publishing new material. But I guess I do not need to address the ridiculousness of offering Few Returned but yet Hollow Legions is out of print. Granted, I know that if someone was interested in buying AP3 then obviously they wold already have HL. My point is if someone wanted to enter this hobby I am pretty confident they would become very disenchanted very quick. Not being able to play any N.Afrika scenarios. No pacific theatre which is half the war. No southern europe scenarios. the only thing feasible for the beginner is eastern and western front containing no british troops. Not to mention no campaigns. So even though they have done good in producing new material - in my opinion a very poor job in supporting the hobby overall. Because of this I refuse to buy "starter-kits." I'm ranting now but I'll tell you. I think that if Curt has no intention of ever publishing RB, KFP, BTF BRT ever again then I do not see any reason why MMP should even be in this business. It's fustrating because I do not want to see the entire hobby go away but yet we are stuck with their half-ass approach. I say all this and yet I just purchased Operation Veritable even though I already know there is probably no way I'll be able to play it anytime soon. I just wanted it because I know that once it sells out - it will go away forever. But then there's the whole ebay thing - dont get me started. I just saw AP1&2 for sale for like $350. Thats outrageous, but what else are people to do if they want the overrun and OBA flow charts? side note - i have seen mounted board 52 for sale on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:IT&item =140194215360&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI are these fakes or were they sold by MMP at sometime? does anyone know? I'm done - sorry for the rant, I know I'm not the only one. Arlen Vanek Fort Worth ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Olie" To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Carl D. Fago" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:37 AM Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > Arlen wrote: > > >> This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK >> rules? I >> do >> not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there is no >> difference. > > I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not > changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find it > remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. > >> I >> just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of the >> scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I assume >> the only reason for this is to promote their other products. No >> problem there I guess. But in reality why would I want to buy starter >> kits if I am already >> playing asl to the point where I am buying Action Pack 3? Why would i now >> backtrack and buy a starter kit? > > I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several > reasons: 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among my > friends. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. 2. To have a > simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less cumbersome to > carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend (and > full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the > local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and > drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" > role for me much like "Up Front" used to do. > >> If this is only to promote and increase >> sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter >> kits >> are >> for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. > > Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. > That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the > surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct and > that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This might be > part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything that has > the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my personal > reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point is that most > full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now considered part > of the official "canon" available to scenario designers. > >> If someone who >> owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck >> since I assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be >> owned. hollow legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the >> only one here that sees a problems with this. I love the hobby >> but...do they really need to make this so fustrating? > > I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the > scenarios > require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board is slated for > Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. Considering I've only > been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not losing any > sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. YMMV. > > David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie > > _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 07:55:01 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:55:01 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <000f01c84d22$be9287c0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <024c01c84d54$06dd57e0$6401a8c0@questis.net> Message-ID: This illustrated my point to perfection.(see below) I only hope the the folks at MMP are listening. I never questioned their passion or their quality of product. I simply am stating the obvious. I never even questioned the Starter Kits in general, it's a great idea, but very self-defeating if the rest of game is unavailable. It's a shame we have to lose players like Jeff. I would have bought Gung Ho already but I am very reluctant since Code of Bushido will never get reprinted, BRT will never get reprinted and if they ever repackage these modules like the plan is that may not happen until 2020. Thats a realistic possibility since it took at least a decade for DB and AoO to hit the shelf. Given this, does it surprise anyone that Gung Ho never sold out of its original printing? Why buy something I can't play anyway? AV Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Curtis" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: RE: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) >I hope you all don't mind if I jump into your discussion here, but I >thought > I might add the perspective of someone who had never played ASL prior to > the > starter kits coming out. I seriously doubt that I ever would have tried > ASL had I not purchased ASLSK #1. I know several other wargamers who were > not ASL veterans who have also been buying the starter kits. > > Where I have to agree with Arlen is the difficulty of moving beyond SK > 1-3. > I played a few games, even lucked into a patient chap who led me through a > game of Guards Counter Attack on VASL, and became very interested in all > of > ASL. I joined list servers like this one and bought all the back issues > of > 'From the Bunker'. I loved the huge variety of all the different > scenarios > out there. Then reality set in on the difficulty of actually getting to > play most of them. Trying to accumulate the maps and modules you need > quickly becomes quite discouraging, unless you're one of those lucky folks > where money is no object. Then you can just pluck down your $1000-1500 > on > Ebay and buy a complete ASL set. I had started to accumulate a few odds > and ends. I have the main rule book, Beyond Valor, Yanks, Paratroopers, > Last Hurrah, Action Pack #2, some CH modules and quite a few Journals. > I'm > at a crossroads now, and frankly there's a good chance I'll probably just > sell off most of this except for the starter kits. I may keep Beyond > Valor > and Yanks, but haven't decided. I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the > Guards. North Africa and the Pacific are two areas I'm quite interested > in, and those are price prohibitive as well. Critical Hit seems to have > done a better job with making many of the Advanced Tobruk modules > self-contained. I have to say that factor alone is leading me to giving > that system a serious look. > > Even if I had all the modules, just organizing everything is daunting > enough. I guess my best bet would be to hook up with a local gamer who > already has all the ASL modules, but the local club generally plays on > Saturday, which is not a good day for me. VASSAL certainly can help > getting around not having the right boards, but I just don't enjoy online > play as much as face-to-face. > > Just thought I would give you the perspective of a newbie. I think the > starter kits have worked well at getting new people to look at ASL and > give > it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from there. Heck, > when > I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even available, which seems > crazy. I figure by the time Code of the Bushido gets back in print, then > the module with the US Marines, is it Gung Ho?, will be out of print. I'm > just not willing to keep buying one module, hoping the others I need to > play > it will eventually come back into print. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:41 AM > To: George Bates; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > George, > Obviously you misunderstood what I was saying. I do give MMP high marks > for > what they have done. However, I give them low marks overall. I am very > thankful for what they have done. However I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. I must humbly disagee with my > right > > proper gentleman when he says that no other orginization could support the > hobby. All I want is all of the core modules available at one time. Surely > thats not too much to ask. It seems to me that limited supply drives > prices > up which benefits them only. Example is look at the retail price of > Journal > 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but > will > cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay > $50 > > or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? Too > suggest that NO other orginization could better is simply short sighted > and > silly. They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the campaings. > Based > on that alone why would a new player want to get into this hobby? Please > explain. I am only trying to be realistic. And yes, I have set out to > aquire > > everything that has ASL on it. But like I said I refuse to purchase > starter > kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new > players. As you and David has stated most of these were purchased by > current > > ASL'ers and maybe 4 other people.I would rather see Red Barricades and > Code > of Bushido available. And please would someone please tell me the logic > behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I the > only person who is interested in N Africa? > Couldnt the time and effort behind this been more wisely spent elsewhere? > Arlen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Bates" > To: "'Arlen Vanek'" > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:34 AM > Subject: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > > Arlen, David certainly spoke for me. I have all three Starter Kits. I > and > many others that I buy for want all ASL product. It's also nice to have > more of some very commonly-used components (M4A3s, Soviet rifle squads, > 2-pdrs, etc...). Also, as a mediocre ASL player the rule booklets and > condensed play serve as a fine reminder of key points of the game that I > have not properly grasped. I sometimes find SK scenarios a tad dry as it > is > not possible to do some things using the truncated ruleset. However, > David > is right when he says that it's great for a quick "beer & pretzels" match > (the original aim of SL...?) and it has also allowed our Yokohama Group to > add 4 new players over 2006 - 2007. > > I'd really like to ask you to re-evaluate your attitude toward MMP. Their > support of the hobby and dedication to quality is far higher than Avalon > Hill ever showed. You should also remember that without their > intervention > no new product or product re-releases would be taking place. Hasbro > appeared to have no intention of continuing publication of the ASL line. > You can fault their organization and limited bandwidth, but I think you > should remember that you are seeing the result of the efforts of 2 core > leaders, 3-4 employees and a cadre of volunteer honchos, designers and > playtesters. Given the size of the market, I don't think there is any > other > type of organization that could continue to support the hobby. As I've > said > here before, rather than whining about the effort that Curt, Brian, Perry > and their associates give us, we should be worrying about how to sustain > the > hobby should we ever lose them. Our position is really quite frail. > Given > that, I recommend that you lay your hands on every available piece of ASL > kit you come across. Barring flood, pestilence or war, there will be more > coming along shortly, and there is plenty to enjoy now as it is. I > recommend you try J106 "Marders Not Martyrs" as MMP generously included > board "v" for you in Journal 7. > > Cheers! > > George Bates > Yokohama, Japan > Gaming by the Bay 1st Sunday of each month. > Swim on over! We'll leave the light on for you. > > Now in progress: > J110 "Prelude To Spring" German vs. David Olie > 24 "The Mad Minute" US vs. Lee Fehlberg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:27 PM > To: David Olie; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > > I didn't know you spoke for most ASL players. You certainly don't speak > for > me. Me and the people I play with have no intention of buying the starter > kits. However, thanks for setting me straight with what most people think. > > The fact is MMP/AH have done this from the beginning. There is not one > module that I know of that does not require another module or purchase of > some kind. Beyond Valor was close but you also needed the rule book. > > Do not get me wrong here I love this hobby and will play for as long as I > can imagine. And I do understand the business strategy. However if MMP is > not going to make these items available then its kind of self defeating. > That was my point. I would not and do not have a problem with there method > so much as their inability to supply us with what we need to play. I mean > look at the website. I believe there is more out of print then there is in > print and boards are not even availble period. Not to mention campaigns. > I've tried to get people interested in the game too and once they find out > that most of the material isn't even available for purchase they shake > there > > heads and pull out there axis and allies boards. > > I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I think MMP overall has done a > great job in publishing new material. But I guess I do not need to address > the ridiculousness of offering Few Returned but yet Hollow Legions is out > of > > print. Granted, I know that if someone was interested in buying AP3 then > obviously they wold already have HL. My point is if someone wanted to > enter > this hobby I am pretty confident they would become very disenchanted very > quick. Not being able to play any N.Afrika scenarios. No pacific theatre > which is half the war. No southern europe scenarios. the only thing > feasible > > for the beginner is eastern and western front containing no british > troops. > Not to mention no campaigns. > > So even though they have done good in producing new material - in my > opinion > > a very poor job in supporting the hobby overall. Because of this I refuse > to > > buy "starter-kits." > > I'm ranting now but I'll tell you. I think that if Curt has no intention > of > ever publishing RB, KFP, BTF BRT ever again then I do not see any reason > why > > MMP should even be in this business. It's fustrating because I do not want > to see the entire hobby go away but yet we are stuck with their half-ass > approach. > > I say all this and yet I just purchased Operation Veritable even though I > already know there is probably no way I'll be able to play it anytime > soon. > I just wanted it because I know that once it sells out - it will go away > forever. But then there's the whole ebay thing - dont get me started. I > just > > saw AP1&2 for sale for like $350. Thats outrageous, but what else are > people > > to do if they want the overrun and OBA flow charts? > > side note - i have seen mounted board 52 for sale on ebay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:IT&item > =140194215360&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI > are these fakes or were they sold by MMP at sometime? does anyone know? > > I'm done - sorry for the rant, I know I'm not the only one. > > Arlen Vanek > Fort Worth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Olie" > To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Carl D. Fago" > ; > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > >> Arlen wrote: >> >> >>> This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK >>> rules? I >>> do >>> not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there is no >>> difference. >> >> I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not >> changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find it >> remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. >> >>> I >>> just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of the >>> scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I assume >>> the only reason for this is to promote their other products. No >>> problem there I guess. But in reality why would I want to buy starter >>> kits if I am already >>> playing asl to the point where I am buying Action Pack 3? Why would i >>> now >>> backtrack and buy a starter kit? >> >> I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several >> reasons: 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among my >> friends. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. 2. To have a >> simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less cumbersome to >> carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend (and >> full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the >> local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and >> drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" >> role for me much like "Up Front" used to do. >> >>> If this is only to promote and increase >>> sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter >>> kits >>> are >>> for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. >> >> Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. >> That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the >> surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct and >> that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This might >> be > >> part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything that >> has > >> the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my personal >> reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point is that most >> full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now considered part >> of the official "canon" available to scenario designers. >> >>> If someone who >>> owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck >>> since I assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be >>> owned. hollow legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the >>> only one here that sees a problems with this. I love the hobby >>> but...do they really need to make this so fustrating? >> >> I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the >> scenarios >> require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board is slated for >> Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. Considering I've >> only > >> been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not losing >> any > >> sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. YMMV. >> >> David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > From geb3 at inter.net Wed Jan 2 10:05:33 2008 From: geb3 at inter.net (George Bates) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 03:05:33 +0900 Subject: [Aslml] RE2: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Arlen, thanks for forwarding Jeff's message as I don't think it made it to the List. The two of you have a lot of different beefs and I can't touch on them all, nor can I be a spokesperson for MMP. I'm not sure how long either of you have been active in the hobby but I'll address a few topics that have seen considerable coverage here and on Consim. Here are some generally (not universally!) accepted understandings for some of the concerns you raise. > I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. ... > I said I refuse to purchase starter kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new players. BATES: 4 players in this locality. The numbers add up as you tally the ASL communities around the globe. Take a look at the ASLSK page on Consim and you'll see a very vibrant new community of players inspired by the SKs. If you don't want the SKs, fine. But we need at least a few pimply adolescents to pick them up before too many of us have coronaries or go senile. > All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. BATES: Actually, it's a lot to ask given what was left at Avalon Hill. Although MMP recovered the stock that Hasbro had removed from Maryland to their warehouse in Boston, most of the original material and artwork were lost (and none of it was in digital format). As that stock has sold down MMP have had to rebuild the rulebook, Beyond Valor, Hollow Legions, the UK/Commonwealth forces in FKAC _and_ redraw all the maps from scratch. Likewise, all the other core modules need to be re-written. 3rd edition Hollow Legions with Chapter F and a new combo Chapter G module (Code of Ho?) are in the production pipeline. They are going to require years to draw, type, incorporate errata, proof and test. This is an endeavor for far-sighted, patient and persevering people and would take a company the size of the former Avalon Hill years to accomplish. MMP deserves a standing ovation for preserving the hobby from the smoking ruins of Avalon Hill. When you're done clapping, sit down and play a few scenarios while you wait. Or play a certain Carly Simon song while you watch the ketchup (maybe catsup in your area) flow toward the mouth of the bottle... > It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but > will cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay > $50 or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? BATES: The answer here is that yes, this is an accurate reflection of production costs for a very limited run of a 4-color offset printed magazine. We are talking about a 2 or 3 thousand units here. As someone with a long career in document management and printing I can tell you that you do not reach economies of scale on these machines until you have run tens or hundreds of thousands. The setup costs have to be absorbed by a much smaller volume resulting in a very steep unit cost on low print runs. You are free to speculate on what their margins might be, but as Brian & Perry have not quit their day jobs nor are they driving Lexus' I would suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. If you don't want to pay the pre-order price of $37.50, don't. > They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the campaings. BATES: Right. Because the historical modules are one-offs. They were never meant to be reprinted. Only core modules are kept in print. Red Barricades was popular enough to re-appear in in 2nd edition Beyond Valor and might get another run in conjunction with Red October since the terrain is adjacent, but don't look for reissues of any of these items or any action packs, scenario packs, Annuals or Journals (J2 again being a special case). If you missed them, you missed them. I missed Action Pack 1 and Streets of Fire. Both were gone by the time I rejoined the hobby. Used is our only option. (OT: Anyone wanna sell me their CD of Tupelo Honey? I'm gonna have to buy it used on Amazon) > And please would someone please tell me the logic > behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I the > only person who is interested in N Africa? BATES: FKAC represents a choice by MMP that they clrearly explained to the playing public at the time. There were many problems reproducing West of Alamein as is. One is that the UK/Commonwealth forces participated in every theatre of the war from beginning to end. There were also numerous maps that still needed a permanent home, and a trove of out-of-print General & Annual scenarios featuring the Brits that deserved a place in a core module. Trying to tackle Chapter F and the desert maps and overlays (all of which need to be created again from scratch, mind you) on top of that would have delayed the project further and resulted in a monstrous price tag. MMP felt it best to get the entire British OB, the scenarios and the maps out to the public first and deal with desert in another bite. Per the above, it seems that Chapter F will have a home with the Eyties. > I think the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when > I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even available, which seems crazy. BATES: Understandable frustration, but one that has to a great extent been fixed. Players looking for fresh meat once they've chewed through SKs 1, 2 & 3 can now knock themselves out on Beyond Valor, Yanks, For King & Country, Croix de Guerre and Armies of Oblivion, plus Partisan & Last Hurrah with a new Doomed Battalions in the wings. Pegasus Bridge and Op Veritable are also available and playable. So are the last three Journals. Plenty to play now. The reason for the gap as I've noted before elsewhere is that MMP is trying to do three things at once - rebuild the core kit and keep it in print, develop new product, and create a ramp into the hobby that will expand it's base to a market size that will sustain the hobby after the original group of players die. It's very difficult to sustain an even effort on all three fronts. I put it to you that it's very presumptuous to think that you or I or anyone else could do a better job than MMP have. > I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the Guards. BATES: NOOOOOOO! Avast! Belay! You will _kick_ yourself around your block 10 times if you do not get this. You already have everything you need to play and the word-of-mouth on this product is very, very good. Brian just announced on Consim today that the last of the components are at the printer. They may yet hit their (often revised) target of opening sales at Winter Offensive on the 17th. Get that pre-order back up NOW. > but I just don't enjoy online play as much as face-to-face. BATES: HEAR, HEAR! David and I can also vouch for Skype as a much more personable form of long-distance play. But as a new player, the best thing you can do for yourself is to buddy up with someone who has been in the game a while. It will do great things for your learning curve, he'll help you get organized, and he probably has all the kit you missed. He may even have a spare one to give you. Let me wrap by suggesting that you get as much mileage as you can from the copious amount of kit you have already acquired. At a rate of 2-3 scenarios per week (I'm nowhere near that!) you won't exhaust your options for several years yet. If you want to see more material get to print sooner, volunteer to playtest or proof. I can't emphasize strongly enough that the only way our hobby will stay alive is through individual contributions of effort. Cheers! - G -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:55 AM To: Jeff Curtis; aslml at lists.aslml.net Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) This illustrated my point to perfection.(see below) I only hope the the folks at MMP are listening. I never questioned their passion or their quality of product. I simply am stating the obvious. I never even questioned the Starter Kits in general, it's a great idea, but very self-defeating if the rest of game is unavailable. It's a shame we have to lose players like Jeff. I would have bought Gung Ho already but I am very reluctant since Code of Bushido will never get reprinted, BRT will never get reprinted and if they ever repackage these modules like the plan is that may not happen until 2020. Thats a realistic possibility since it took at least a decade for DB and AoO to hit the shelf. Given this, does it surprise anyone that Gung Ho never sold out of its original printing? Why buy something I can't play anyway? AV Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Curtis" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: RE: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) >I hope you all don't mind if I jump into your discussion here, but I >thought > I might add the perspective of someone who had never played ASL prior to > the > starter kits coming out. I seriously doubt that I ever would have tried > ASL had I not purchased ASLSK #1. I know several other wargamers who were > not ASL veterans who have also been buying the starter kits. > > Where I have to agree with Arlen is the difficulty of moving beyond SK > 1-3. > I played a few games, even lucked into a patient chap who led me through a > game of Guards Counter Attack on VASL, and became very interested in all > of > ASL. I joined list servers like this one and bought all the back issues > of > 'From the Bunker'. I loved the huge variety of all the different > scenarios > out there. Then reality set in on the difficulty of actually getting to > play most of them. Trying to accumulate the maps and modules you need > quickly becomes quite discouraging, unless you're one of those lucky folks > where money is no object. Then you can just pluck down your $1000-1500 > on > Ebay and buy a complete ASL set. I had started to accumulate a few odds > and ends. I have the main rule book, Beyond Valor, Yanks, Paratroopers, > Last Hurrah, Action Pack #2, some CH modules and quite a few Journals. > I'm > at a crossroads now, and frankly there's a good chance I'll probably just > sell off most of this except for the starter kits. I may keep Beyond > Valor > and Yanks, but haven't decided. I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the > Guards. North Africa and the Pacific are two areas I'm quite interested > in, and those are price prohibitive as well. Critical Hit seems to have > done a better job with making many of the Advanced Tobruk modules > self-contained. I have to say that factor alone is leading me to giving > that system a serious look. > > Even if I had all the modules, just organizing everything is daunting > enough. I guess my best bet would be to hook up with a local gamer > who already has all the ASL modules, but the local club generally plays on > Saturday, which is not a good day for me. VASSAL certainly can help > getting around not having the right boards, but I just don't enjoy > online play as much as face-to-face. > > Just thought I would give you the perspective of a newbie. I think > the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when > I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even available, which seems > crazy. I figure by the time Code of the Bushido gets back in print, then > the module with the US Marines, is it Gung Ho?, will be out of print. I'm > just not willing to keep buying one module, hoping the others I need to > play > it will eventually come back into print. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:41 AM > To: George Bates; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > George, > Obviously you misunderstood what I was saying. I do give MMP high > marks > for > what they have done. However, I give them low marks overall. I am very > thankful for what they have done. However I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. I must humbly disagee with my > right > > proper gentleman when he says that no other orginization could support > the hobby. All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal > 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but > will > cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay > $50 > > or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? Too > suggest that NO other orginization could better is simply short > sighted and silly. They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the > campaings. Based > on that alone why would a new player want to get into this hobby? Please > explain. I am only trying to be realistic. And yes, I have set out to > aquire > > everything that has ASL on it. But like I said I refuse to purchase > starter > kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new > players. As you and David has stated most of these were purchased by > current > > ASL'ers and maybe 4 other people.I would rather see Red Barricades and > Code > of Bushido available. And please would someone please tell me the logic > behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I the > only person who is interested in N Africa? > Couldnt the time and effort behind this been more wisely spent elsewhere? > Arlen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Bates" > To: "'Arlen Vanek'" > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:34 AM > Subject: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > > Arlen, David certainly spoke for me. I have all three Starter Kits. > I > and > many others that I buy for want all ASL product. It's also nice to have > more of some very commonly-used components (M4A3s, Soviet rifle squads, > 2-pdrs, etc...). Also, as a mediocre ASL player the rule booklets and > condensed play serve as a fine reminder of key points of the game that I > have not properly grasped. I sometimes find SK scenarios a tad dry as it > is > not possible to do some things using the truncated ruleset. However, > David > is right when he says that it's great for a quick "beer & pretzels" match > (the original aim of SL...?) and it has also allowed our Yokohama Group to > add 4 new players over 2006 - 2007. > > I'd really like to ask you to re-evaluate your attitude toward MMP. > Their support of the hobby and dedication to quality is far higher > than Avalon Hill ever showed. You should also remember that without > their intervention no new product or product re-releases would be > taking place. Hasbro appeared to have no intention of continuing > publication of the ASL line. You can fault their organization and > limited bandwidth, but I think you should remember that you are seeing > the result of the efforts of 2 core leaders, 3-4 employees and a cadre > of volunteer honchos, designers and playtesters. Given the size of > the market, I don't think there is any other > type of organization that could continue to support the hobby. As I've > said > here before, rather than whining about the effort that Curt, Brian, Perry > and their associates give us, we should be worrying about how to sustain > the > hobby should we ever lose them. Our position is really quite frail. > Given > that, I recommend that you lay your hands on every available piece of ASL > kit you come across. Barring flood, pestilence or war, there will be more > coming along shortly, and there is plenty to enjoy now as it is. I > recommend you try J106 "Marders Not Martyrs" as MMP generously included > board "v" for you in Journal 7. > > Cheers! > > George Bates > Yokohama, Japan > Gaming by the Bay 1st Sunday of each month. > Swim on over! We'll leave the light on for you. > > Now in progress: > J110 "Prelude To Spring" German vs. David Olie > 24 "The Mad Minute" US vs. Lee Fehlberg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:27 PM > To: David Olie; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > > I didn't know you spoke for most ASL players. You certainly don't > speak > for > me. Me and the people I play with have no intention of buying the starter > kits. However, thanks for setting me straight with what most people think. > > The fact is MMP/AH have done this from the beginning. There is not one > module that I know of that does not require another module or purchase > of some kind. Beyond Valor was close but you also needed the rule > book. > > Do not get me wrong here I love this hobby and will play for as long > as I can imagine. And I do understand the business strategy. However > if MMP is not going to make these items available then its kind of > self defeating. That was my point. I would not and do not have a > problem with there method so much as their inability to supply us with > what we need to play. I mean look at the website. I believe there is > more out of print then there is in print and boards are not even > availble period. Not to mention campaigns. I've tried to get people > interested in the game too and once they find out that most of the > material isn't even available for purchase they shake there > > heads and pull out there axis and allies boards. > > I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I think MMP overall has done > a great job in publishing new material. But I guess I do not need to > address the ridiculousness of offering Few Returned but yet Hollow > Legions is out of > > print. Granted, I know that if someone was interested in buying AP3 > then obviously they wold already have HL. My point is if someone > wanted to enter this hobby I am pretty confident they would become > very disenchanted very quick. Not being able to play any N.Afrika > scenarios. No pacific theatre which is half the war. No southern > europe scenarios. the only thing feasible > > for the beginner is eastern and western front containing no british > troops. > Not to mention no campaigns. > > So even though they have done good in producing new material - in my > opinion > > a very poor job in supporting the hobby overall. Because of this I > refuse > to > > buy "starter-kits." > > I'm ranting now but I'll tell you. I think that if Curt has no > intention > of > ever publishing RB, KFP, BTF BRT ever again then I do not see any reason > why > > MMP should even be in this business. It's fustrating because I do not > want to see the entire hobby go away but yet we are stuck with their > half-ass approach. > > I say all this and yet I just purchased Operation Veritable even > though I already know there is probably no way I'll be able to play it > anytime soon. I just wanted it because I know that once it sells out - > it will go away forever. But then there's the whole ebay thing - dont > get me started. I just > > saw AP1&2 for sale for like $350. Thats outrageous, but what else are > people > > to do if they want the overrun and OBA flow charts? > > side note - i have seen mounted board 52 for sale on ebay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:I > T&item > =140194215360&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI > are these fakes or were they sold by MMP at sometime? does anyone know? > > I'm done - sorry for the rant, I know I'm not the only one. > > Arlen Vanek > Fort Worth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Olie" > To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Carl D. Fago" > ; > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > >> Arlen wrote: >> >> >>> This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK >>> rules? I do >>> not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there is no >>> difference. >> >> I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not >> changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find >> it remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. >> >>> I >>> just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of >>> the scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I >>> assume the only reason for this is to promote their other products. >>> No problem there I guess. But in reality why would I want to buy >>> starter kits if I am already playing asl to the point where I am >>> buying Action Pack 3? Why would i now >>> backtrack and buy a starter kit? >> >> I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several >> reasons: 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among >> my friends. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. 2. To have >> a simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less cumbersome to >> carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend (and >> full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the >> local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and >> drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" >> role for me much like "Up Front" used to do. >> >>> If this is only to promote and increase >>> sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter >>> kits are >>> for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. >> >> Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. >> That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the >> surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct >> and that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This >> might be > >> part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything >> that >> has > >> the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my >> personal reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point >> is that most full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now >> considered part of the official "canon" available to scenario >> designers. >> >>> If someone who >>> owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck >>> since I assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be >>> owned. hollow legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the >>> only one here that sees a problems with this. I love the hobby >>> but...do they really need to make this so fustrating? >> >> I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the >> scenarios require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board >> is slated for Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. >> Considering I've only > >> been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not >> losing >> any > >> sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. >> YMMV. >> >> David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 10:33:11 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:33:11 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Message-ID: I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can do a better job than a company that could devote a full time professional staff. (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never brought up any of these issues with them I am just talking about general questions about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them on the phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them personally or their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP deserves all the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that if it's too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to such a company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to this at all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious market for such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for all their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good did it do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they will be. They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only point. My concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt decides to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think it would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this if given the opportunity. Arlen Vanek Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bates" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: RE2: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) Arlen, thanks for forwarding Jeff's message as I don't think it made it to the List. The two of you have a lot of different beefs and I can't touch on them all, nor can I be a spokesperson for MMP. I'm not sure how long either of you have been active in the hobby but I'll address a few topics that have seen considerable coverage here and on Consim. Here are some generally (not universally!) accepted understandings for some of the concerns you raise. > I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. .. > I said I refuse to purchase starter kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new players. BATES: 4 players in this locality. The numbers add up as you tally the ASL communities around the globe. Take a look at the ASLSK page on Consim and you'll see a very vibrant new community of players inspired by the SKs. If you don't want the SKs, fine. But we need at least a few pimply adolescents to pick them up before too many of us have coronaries or go senile. > All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. BATES: Actually, it's a lot to ask given what was left at Avalon Hill. Although MMP recovered the stock that Hasbro had removed from Maryland to their warehouse in Boston, most of the original material and artwork were lost (and none of it was in digital format). As that stock has sold down MMP have had to rebuild the rulebook, Beyond Valor, Hollow Legions, the UK/Commonwealth forces in FKAC _and_ redraw all the maps from scratch. Likewise, all the other core modules need to be re-written. 3rd edition Hollow Legions with Chapter F and a new combo Chapter G module (Code of Ho?) are in the production pipeline. They are going to require years to draw, type, incorporate errata, proof and test. This is an endeavor for far-sighted, patient and persevering people and would take a company the size of the former Avalon Hill years to accomplish. MMP deserves a standing ovation for preserving the hobby from the smoking ruins of Avalon Hill. When you're done clapping, sit down and play a few scenarios while you wait. Or play a certain Carly Simon song while you watch the ketchup (maybe catsup in your area) flow toward the mouth of the bottle... > It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but > will cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay > $50 or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? BATES: The answer here is that yes, this is an accurate reflection of production costs for a very limited run of a 4-color offset printed magazine. We are talking about a 2 or 3 thousand units here. As someone with a long career in document management and printing I can tell you that you do not reach economies of scale on these machines until you have run tens or hundreds of thousands. The setup costs have to be absorbed by a much smaller volume resulting in a very steep unit cost on low print runs. You are free to speculate on what their margins might be, but as Brian & Perry have not quit their day jobs nor are they driving Lexus' I would suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. If you don't want to pay the pre-order price of $37.50, don't. > They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the campaings. BATES: Right. Because the historical modules are one-offs. They were never meant to be reprinted. Only core modules are kept in print. Red Barricades was popular enough to re-appear in in 2nd edition Beyond Valor and might get another run in conjunction with Red October since the terrain is adjacent, but don't look for reissues of any of these items or any action packs, scenario packs, Annuals or Journals (J2 again being a special case). If you missed them, you missed them. I missed Action Pack 1 and Streets of Fire. Both were gone by the time I rejoined the hobby. Used is our only option. (OT: Anyone wanna sell me their CD of Tupelo Honey? I'm gonna have to buy it used on Amazon) > And please would someone please tell me the logic > behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I the > only person who is interested in N Africa? BATES: FKAC represents a choice by MMP that they clrearly explained to the playing public at the time. There were many problems reproducing West of Alamein as is. One is that the UK/Commonwealth forces participated in every theatre of the war from beginning to end. There were also numerous maps that still needed a permanent home, and a trove of out-of-print General & Annual scenarios featuring the Brits that deserved a place in a core module. Trying to tackle Chapter F and the desert maps and overlays (all of which need to be created again from scratch, mind you) on top of that would have delayed the project further and resulted in a monstrous price tag. MMP felt it best to get the entire British OB, the scenarios and the maps out to the public first and deal with desert in another bite. Per the above, it seems that Chapter F will have a home with the Eyties. > I think the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when > I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even available, which seems crazy. BATES: Understandable frustration, but one that has to a great extent been fixed. Players looking for fresh meat once they've chewed through SKs 1, 2 & 3 can now knock themselves out on Beyond Valor, Yanks, For King & Country, Croix de Guerre and Armies of Oblivion, plus Partisan & Last Hurrah with a new Doomed Battalions in the wings. Pegasus Bridge and Op Veritable are also available and playable. So are the last three Journals. Plenty to play now. The reason for the gap as I've noted before elsewhere is that MMP is trying to do three things at once - rebuild the core kit and keep it in print, develop new product, and create a ramp into the hobby that will expand it's base to a market size that will sustain the hobby after the original group of players die. It's very difficult to sustain an even effort on all three fronts. I put it to you that it's very presumptuous to think that you or I or anyone else could do a better job than MMP have. > I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the Guards. BATES: NOOOOOOO! Avast! Belay! You will _kick_ yourself around your block 10 times if you do not get this. You already have everything you need to play and the word-of-mouth on this product is very, very good. Brian just announced on Consim today that the last of the components are at the printer. They may yet hit their (often revised) target of opening sales at Winter Offensive on the 17th. Get that pre-order back up NOW. > but I just don't enjoy online play as much as face-to-face. BATES: HEAR, HEAR! David and I can also vouch for Skype as a much more personable form of long-distance play. But as a new player, the best thing you can do for yourself is to buddy up with someone who has been in the game a while. It will do great things for your learning curve, he'll help you get organized, and he probably has all the kit you missed. He may even have a spare one to give you. Let me wrap by suggesting that you get as much mileage as you can from the copious amount of kit you have already acquired. At a rate of 2-3 scenarios per week (I'm nowhere near that!) you won't exhaust your options for several years yet. If you want to see more material get to print sooner, volunteer to playtest or proof. I can't emphasize strongly enough that the only way our hobby will stay alive is through individual contributions of effort. Cheers! - G -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:55 AM To: Jeff Curtis; aslml at lists.aslml.net Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) This illustrated my point to perfection.(see below) I only hope the the folks at MMP are listening. I never questioned their passion or their quality of product. I simply am stating the obvious. I never even questioned the Starter Kits in general, it's a great idea, but very self-defeating if the rest of game is unavailable. It's a shame we have to lose players like Jeff. I would have bought Gung Ho already but I am very reluctant since Code of Bushido will never get reprinted, BRT will never get reprinted and if they ever repackage these modules like the plan is that may not happen until 2020. Thats a realistic possibility since it took at least a decade for DB and AoO to hit the shelf. Given this, does it surprise anyone that Gung Ho never sold out of its original printing? Why buy something I can't play anyway? AV Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Curtis" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: RE: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) >I hope you all don't mind if I jump into your discussion here, but I >thought > I might add the perspective of someone who had never played ASL prior to > the > starter kits coming out. I seriously doubt that I ever would have tried > ASL had I not purchased ASLSK #1. I know several other wargamers who were > not ASL veterans who have also been buying the starter kits. > > Where I have to agree with Arlen is the difficulty of moving beyond SK > 1-3. > I played a few games, even lucked into a patient chap who led me through a > game of Guards Counter Attack on VASL, and became very interested in all > of > ASL. I joined list servers like this one and bought all the back issues > of > 'From the Bunker'. I loved the huge variety of all the different > scenarios > out there. Then reality set in on the difficulty of actually getting to > play most of them. Trying to accumulate the maps and modules you need > quickly becomes quite discouraging, unless you're one of those lucky folks > where money is no object. Then you can just pluck down your $1000-1500 > on > Ebay and buy a complete ASL set. I had started to accumulate a few odds > and ends. I have the main rule book, Beyond Valor, Yanks, Paratroopers, > Last Hurrah, Action Pack #2, some CH modules and quite a few Journals. > I'm > at a crossroads now, and frankly there's a good chance I'll probably just > sell off most of this except for the starter kits. I may keep Beyond > Valor > and Yanks, but haven't decided. I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the > Guards. North Africa and the Pacific are two areas I'm quite interested > in, and those are price prohibitive as well. Critical Hit seems to have > done a better job with making many of the Advanced Tobruk modules > self-contained. I have to say that factor alone is leading me to giving > that system a serious look. > > Even if I had all the modules, just organizing everything is daunting > enough. I guess my best bet would be to hook up with a local gamer > who already has all the ASL modules, but the local club generally plays on > Saturday, which is not a good day for me. VASSAL certainly can help > getting around not having the right boards, but I just don't enjoy > online play as much as face-to-face. > > Just thought I would give you the perspective of a newbie. I think > the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when > I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even available, which seems > crazy. I figure by the time Code of the Bushido gets back in print, then > the module with the US Marines, is it Gung Ho?, will be out of print. I'm > just not willing to keep buying one module, hoping the others I need to > play > it will eventually come back into print. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:41 AM > To: George Bates; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > George, > Obviously you misunderstood what I was saying. I do give MMP high > marks > for > what they have done. However, I give them low marks overall. I am very > thankful for what they have done. However I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. I must humbly disagee with my > right > > proper gentleman when he says that no other orginization could support > the hobby. All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal > 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but > will > cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay > $50 > > or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? Too > suggest that NO other orginization could better is simply short > sighted and silly. They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the > campaings. Based > on that alone why would a new player want to get into this hobby? Please > explain. I am only trying to be realistic. And yes, I have set out to > aquire > > everything that has ASL on it. But like I said I refuse to purchase > starter > kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new > players. As you and David has stated most of these were purchased by > current > > ASL'ers and maybe 4 other people.I would rather see Red Barricades and > Code > of Bushido available. And please would someone please tell me the logic > behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I the > only person who is interested in N Africa? > Couldnt the time and effort behind this been more wisely spent elsewhere? > Arlen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Bates" > To: "'Arlen Vanek'" > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:34 AM > Subject: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > > Arlen, David certainly spoke for me. I have all three Starter Kits. > I > and > many others that I buy for want all ASL product. It's also nice to have > more of some very commonly-used components (M4A3s, Soviet rifle squads, > 2-pdrs, etc...). Also, as a mediocre ASL player the rule booklets and > condensed play serve as a fine reminder of key points of the game that I > have not properly grasped. I sometimes find SK scenarios a tad dry as it > is > not possible to do some things using the truncated ruleset. However, > David > is right when he says that it's great for a quick "beer & pretzels" match > (the original aim of SL...?) and it has also allowed our Yokohama Group to > add 4 new players over 2006 - 2007. > > I'd really like to ask you to re-evaluate your attitude toward MMP. > Their support of the hobby and dedication to quality is far higher > than Avalon Hill ever showed. You should also remember that without > their intervention no new product or product re-releases would be > taking place. Hasbro appeared to have no intention of continuing > publication of the ASL line. You can fault their organization and > limited bandwidth, but I think you should remember that you are seeing > the result of the efforts of 2 core leaders, 3-4 employees and a cadre > of volunteer honchos, designers and playtesters. Given the size of > the market, I don't think there is any other > type of organization that could continue to support the hobby. As I've > said > here before, rather than whining about the effort that Curt, Brian, Perry > and their associates give us, we should be worrying about how to sustain > the > hobby should we ever lose them. Our position is really quite frail. > Given > that, I recommend that you lay your hands on every available piece of ASL > kit you come across. Barring flood, pestilence or war, there will be more > coming along shortly, and there is plenty to enjoy now as it is. I > recommend you try J106 "Marders Not Martyrs" as MMP generously included > board "v" for you in Journal 7. > > Cheers! > > George Bates > Yokohama, Japan > Gaming by the Bay 1st Sunday of each month. > Swim on over! We'll leave the light on for you. > > Now in progress: > J110 "Prelude To Spring" German vs. David Olie > 24 "The Mad Minute" US vs. Lee Fehlberg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:27 PM > To: David Olie; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > > I didn't know you spoke for most ASL players. You certainly don't > speak > for > me. Me and the people I play with have no intention of buying the starter > kits. However, thanks for setting me straight with what most people think. > > The fact is MMP/AH have done this from the beginning. There is not one > module that I know of that does not require another module or purchase > of some kind. Beyond Valor was close but you also needed the rule > book. > > Do not get me wrong here I love this hobby and will play for as long > as I can imagine. And I do understand the business strategy. However > if MMP is not going to make these items available then its kind of > self defeating. That was my point. I would not and do not have a > problem with there method so much as their inability to supply us with > what we need to play. I mean look at the website. I believe there is > more out of print then there is in print and boards are not even > availble period. Not to mention campaigns. I've tried to get people > interested in the game too and once they find out that most of the > material isn't even available for purchase they shake there > > heads and pull out there axis and allies boards. > > I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I think MMP overall has done > a great job in publishing new material. But I guess I do not need to > address the ridiculousness of offering Few Returned but yet Hollow > Legions is out of > > print. Granted, I know that if someone was interested in buying AP3 > then obviously they wold already have HL. My point is if someone > wanted to enter this hobby I am pretty confident they would become > very disenchanted very quick. Not being able to play any N.Afrika > scenarios. No pacific theatre which is half the war. No southern > europe scenarios. the only thing feasible > > for the beginner is eastern and western front containing no british > troops. > Not to mention no campaigns. > > So even though they have done good in producing new material - in my > opinion > > a very poor job in supporting the hobby overall. Because of this I > refuse > to > > buy "starter-kits." > > I'm ranting now but I'll tell you. I think that if Curt has no > intention > of > ever publishing RB, KFP, BTF BRT ever again then I do not see any reason > why > > MMP should even be in this business. It's fustrating because I do not > want to see the entire hobby go away but yet we are stuck with their > half-ass approach. > > I say all this and yet I just purchased Operation Veritable even > though I already know there is probably no way I'll be able to play it > anytime soon. I just wanted it because I know that once it sells out - > it will go away forever. But then there's the whole ebay thing - dont > get me started. I just > > saw AP1&2 for sale for like $350. Thats outrageous, but what else are > people > > to do if they want the overrun and OBA flow charts? > > side note - i have seen mounted board 52 for sale on ebay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:I > T&item > =140194215360&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI > are these fakes or were they sold by MMP at sometime? does anyone know? > > I'm done - sorry for the rant, I know I'm not the only one. > > Arlen Vanek > Fort Worth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Olie" > To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Carl D. Fago" > ; > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > >> Arlen wrote: >> >> >>> This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK >>> rules? I do >>> not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there is no >>> difference. >> >> I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not >> changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find >> it remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. >> >>> I >>> just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of >>> the scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I >>> assume the only reason for this is to promote their other products. >>> No problem there I guess. But in reality why would I want to buy >>> starter kits if I am already playing asl to the point where I am >>> buying Action Pack 3? Why would i now >>> backtrack and buy a starter kit? >> >> I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several >> reasons: 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among >> my friends. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. 2. To have >> a simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less cumbersome to >> carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend (and >> full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the >> local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and >> drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" >> role for me much like "Up Front" used to do. >> >>> If this is only to promote and increase >>> sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter >>> kits are >>> for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. >> >> Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. >> That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the >> surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct >> and that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This >> might be > >> part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything >> that >> has > >> the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my >> personal reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point >> is that most full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now >> considered part of the official "canon" available to scenario >> designers. >> >>> If someone who >>> owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck >>> since I assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be >>> owned. hollow legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the >>> only one here that sees a problems with this. I love the hobby >>> but...do they really need to make this so fustrating? >> >> I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the >> scenarios require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board >> is slated for Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. >> Considering I've only > >> been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not >> losing >> any > >> sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. >> YMMV. >> >> David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From bpickeri at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 11:50:30 2008 From: bpickeri at gmail.com (Brian Pickering) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:50:30 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Message-ID: <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> Regarding "too much to handle" and "Why campaigns": On Jan 2, 2008 10:33 AM, Arlen Vanek wrote: > I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can do a > better job than a company that could devote a full time professional staff. > (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never brought up > any of these issues with them I am just talking about general questions > about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them on the > phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them personally or > their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP deserves all > the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that if it's > too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to such a > company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. > Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to this at > all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious market for > such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for all > their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good did it > do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they will be. > They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only point. My > concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt decides > to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think it > would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this if given > the opportunity. > > Arlen Vanek > > Fort Worth, TX > Glad to finally see some new-years' traffic on the ASLML, even if it is an ancient flamewar topic! >:-) I think that George has really answered these both, when he made reference to the economics of small print runs. Why isn't anyone else interested in taking on the company and making a major, full-time career out of it? Because it isn't economical to try; Why are the CGs one-time items, as opposed to being core modules that HAVE to get reprinted eventually? Because it is even less economical to reprint the smaller numbers for people new to the hobby. It's a lot like books; take a look at "Off the Wall at Callahan's", by Spider Robinson (http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Callahans-Spider-Robinson/dp/B000H2MFJK/ref=pd_bbs_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199302028&sr=8-11). I'm sure that Spider would love for it to be in-print and available for his fans, BUT... there just aren't enough of us to justify a full print run at a price which the majority of people would be willing to pay, so if I want a copy, I need to go to the Used Book market. Fortunately, it's not too unreasonable, BUT... no new copies available, and are highly unlikely to ever be again, because Spider just isn't an A-List author, and so is rather limited in his reprint possibilities. Likewise, 1) ASL just isn't ever going to have the volume to justify REALLY big print runs on new items. We can all dream about a day when ASL is as popular as Monopoly (or even something like Settlers of Cataan), but I don't expect to see it within my lifetime. 2) As long as copies ARE available on the used market for $100 (let's say) for a particular module, then it doesn't make good business sense to do a run of 500 copies if a) only 100 of them will sell any time soon (unsold stock is effectively money wasted, as far as a business is concerned), and b) the sale price to simply recoup expenses needs to be in the range of $150 (again, let's say. George is the one with the publishing experience, not me, but I've seen enough of these discussions to back-of-the-envelope them). While I know there ARE people out there who will buy anything if it says ASL, even if they already had a copy, I'm certainly not one of them, and I don't know too many who are. Certainly not enough to justify printing 500-1000 copies... not from a BUSINESS standpoint. Anyone who tries to run a business that way is living out the old joke about many hobbies: Q: How do you make a little stack of money in ? A: Start with a BIG stack of money. Put a couple $100,000 of your own money on the table, and I bet they will start doing things your way. I also bet you'll end up with pennies on your dollar... dimes at best. I can't throw away that kind of money, and I'll be that Curt isn't going to be doing it either. Before That Company That Shall Not Be Named (OK, Critical Hit) is brought up as an example, they seem to be doing a large volume of their business on the basis of Cash Up Front. I've stopped pre-ordering anything from them, simply because they take my money RIGHT THEN for a product which may not have even been completely laid out, much less printed and ready to deliver, and then don't deliver it for months to (in one case) over a year. Thus, I've been turned into an Investor in the company, but my only returns are the product at the end of the delivery. Not a huge ROI. If I decide I want any more CH stuff (quite likely, although I haven't been buying much of ANY kind of gaming materials the past year), I'll buy only what is already released, from a reputable broker like Alex Key. I'll often still save money over the MSRP, but I'll get delivery within days or weeks, not months or a year. MMP has decided to take the approach which allows them to sell to Real Game Stores more effectively, that of only billing/expecting payment when something actually ships. No game store is going to pony up $300 for 10 copies of a product they MIGHT be able to sell 6 months or more from now; I'm sure they all pay 30 days net on the delivery invoice, like most any other retailer. OK, end ad-hominem attack, such as it is. Seriously, though, one can't compare the two, because they take seriously different marketing approaches. Each is correct, for a given "Market". -- Brian Pickering bpickeri at gmail.com From geb3 at inter.net Wed Jan 2 11:56:10 2008 From: geb3 at inter.net (George Bates) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 04:56:10 +0900 Subject: [Aslml] RE3: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002701c84d79$8b4bc780$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Arlen, please understand. The market is too small to sustain the kind of corporate effort you would like to see. Avalon Hill's poor management notwithstanding, the industry was consolidating and all the game publishing companies of it's era are gone. Hasbro did not intend to publish any MMP titles at all because in their mind it was too small a revenue stream. It was left to MMP to pick up the ball. If another entity thought it could make enough money off of the product line they would have outbid MMP for those rights. To date, nobody has. WRT to the historical modules going out of print, that is the way of it. Per my illustration with a classic CD, all kinds of wonderful works of art go out of print or become collector's items every year. It is not anyone's place to tell a producer what goods they should keep on their shelves. You are just going to have to wait for a few King & Country components to get printed. Sometimes vendors are out of stock. If you've called around to retailers in your area and nobody's got a last one left on the on the shelf, perhaps some good Samaritan will spot one in their local game store and grab it for you. If not, suck it in and wait. The upshot of my missives is that it's all about Hasbro's rights, MMP's effort, MMP's risk and not yours. I think you've got very little business telling them how to run their business. Please take a time out from your dust up, take a deep breath and hold it a while, and consider that the glass could indeed be half-full, not half-empty. I'm done on this subject. Cheers! - G -----Original Message----- From: Arlen Vanek [mailto:arlenvanek at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 3:33 AM To: George Bates; jefftcurtis at earthlink.net; aslml-aslml.net at lists.aslml.net Subject: Re: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can do a better job than a company that could devote a full time professional staff. (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never brought up any of these issues with them I am just talking about general questions about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them on the phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them personally or their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP deserves all the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that if it's too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to such a company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to this at all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious market for such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for all their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good did it do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they will be. They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only point. My concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt decides to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think it would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this if given the opportunity. Arlen Vanek Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bates" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: RE2: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) Arlen, thanks for forwarding Jeff's message as I don't think it made it to the List. The two of you have a lot of different beefs and I can't touch on them all, nor can I be a spokesperson for MMP. I'm not sure how long either of you have been active in the hobby but I'll address a few topics that have seen considerable coverage here and on Consim. Here are some generally (not universally!) accepted understandings for some of the concerns you raise. > I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. .. > I said I refuse to purchase starter kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new players. BATES: 4 players in this locality. The numbers add up as you tally the ASL communities around the globe. Take a look at the ASLSK page on Consim and you'll see a very vibrant new community of players inspired by the SKs. If you don't want the SKs, fine. But we need at least a few pimply adolescents to pick them up before too many of us have coronaries or go senile. > All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. BATES: Actually, it's a lot to ask given what was left at Avalon Hill. Although MMP recovered the stock that Hasbro had removed from Maryland to their warehouse in Boston, most of the original material and artwork were lost (and none of it was in digital format). As that stock has sold down MMP have had to rebuild the rulebook, Beyond Valor, Hollow Legions, the UK/Commonwealth forces in FKAC _and_ redraw all the maps from scratch. Likewise, all the other core modules need to be re-written. 3rd edition Hollow Legions with Chapter F and a new combo Chapter G module (Code of Ho?) are in the production pipeline. They are going to require years to draw, type, incorporate errata, proof and test. This is an endeavor for far-sighted, patient and persevering people and would take a company the size of the former Avalon Hill years to accomplish. MMP deserves a standing ovation for preserving the hobby from the smoking ruins of Avalon Hill. When you're done clapping, sit down and play a few scenarios while you wait. Or play a certain Carly Simon song while you watch the ketchup (maybe catsup in your area) flow toward the mouth of the bottle... > It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but > will cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen > people pay > $50 or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? BATES: The answer here is that yes, this is an accurate reflection of production costs for a very limited run of a 4-color offset printed magazine. We are talking about a 2 or 3 thousand units here. As someone with a long career in document management and printing I can tell you that you do not reach economies of scale on these machines until you have run tens or hundreds of thousands. The setup costs have to be absorbed by a much smaller volume resulting in a very steep unit cost on low print runs. You are free to speculate on what their margins might be, but as Brian & Perry have not quit their day jobs nor are they driving Lexus' I would suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. If you don't want to pay the pre-order price of $37.50, don't. > They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the campaings. BATES: Right. Because the historical modules are one-offs. They were never meant to be reprinted. Only core modules are kept in print. Red Barricades was popular enough to re-appear in in 2nd edition Beyond Valor and might get another run in conjunction with Red October since the terrain is adjacent, but don't look for reissues of any of these items or any action packs, scenario packs, Annuals or Journals (J2 again being a special case). If you missed them, you missed them. I missed Action Pack 1 and Streets of Fire. Both were gone by the time I rejoined the hobby. Used is our only option. (OT: Anyone wanna sell me their CD of Tupelo Honey? I'm gonna have to buy it used on Amazon) > And please would someone please tell me the logic > behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I > the only person who is interested in N Africa? BATES: FKAC represents a choice by MMP that they clrearly explained to the playing public at the time. There were many problems reproducing West of Alamein as is. One is that the UK/Commonwealth forces participated in every theatre of the war from beginning to end. There were also numerous maps that still needed a permanent home, and a trove of out-of-print General & Annual scenarios featuring the Brits that deserved a place in a core module. Trying to tackle Chapter F and the desert maps and overlays (all of which need to be created again from scratch, mind you) on top of that would have delayed the project further and resulted in a monstrous price tag. MMP felt it best to get the entire British OB, the scenarios and the maps out to the public first and deal with desert in another bite. Per the above, it seems that Chapter F will have a home with the Eyties. > I think the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to > look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even > available, which seems crazy. BATES: Understandable frustration, but one that has to a great extent been fixed. Players looking for fresh meat once they've chewed through SKs 1, 2 & 3 can now knock themselves out on Beyond Valor, Yanks, For King & Country, Croix de Guerre and Armies of Oblivion, plus Partisan & Last Hurrah with a new Doomed Battalions in the wings. Pegasus Bridge and Op Veritable are also available and playable. So are the last three Journals. Plenty to play now. The reason for the gap as I've noted before elsewhere is that MMP is trying to do three things at once - rebuild the core kit and keep it in print, develop new product, and create a ramp into the hobby that will expand it's base to a market size that will sustain the hobby after the original group of players die. It's very difficult to sustain an even effort on all three fronts. I put it to you that it's very presumptuous to think that you or I or anyone else could do a better job than MMP have. > I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the Guards. BATES: NOOOOOOO! Avast! Belay! You will _kick_ yourself around your block 10 times if you do not get this. You already have everything you need to play and the word-of-mouth on this product is very, very good. Brian just announced on Consim today that the last of the components are at the printer. They may yet hit their (often revised) target of opening sales at Winter Offensive on the 17th. Get that pre-order back up NOW. > but I just don't enjoy online play as much as face-to-face. BATES: HEAR, HEAR! David and I can also vouch for Skype as a much more personable form of long-distance play. But as a new player, the best thing you can do for yourself is to buddy up with someone who has been in the game a while. It will do great things for your learning curve, he'll help you get organized, and he probably has all the kit you missed. He may even have a spare one to give you. Let me wrap by suggesting that you get as much mileage as you can from the copious amount of kit you have already acquired. At a rate of 2-3 scenarios per week (I'm nowhere near that!) you won't exhaust your options for several years yet. If you want to see more material get to print sooner, volunteer to playtest or proof. I can't emphasize strongly enough that the only way our hobby will stay alive is through individual contributions of effort. Cheers! - G -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:55 AM To: Jeff Curtis; aslml at lists.aslml.net Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) This illustrated my point to perfection.(see below) I only hope the the folks at MMP are listening. I never questioned their passion or their quality of product. I simply am stating the obvious. I never even questioned the Starter Kits in general, it's a great idea, but very self-defeating if the rest of game is unavailable. It's a shame we have to lose players like Jeff. I would have bought Gung Ho already but I am very reluctant since Code of Bushido will never get reprinted, BRT will never get reprinted and if they ever repackage these modules like the plan is that may not happen until 2020. Thats a realistic possibility since it took at least a decade for DB and AoO to hit the shelf. Given this, does it surprise anyone that Gung Ho never sold out of its original printing? Why buy something I can't play anyway? AV Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Curtis" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: RE: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) >I hope you all don't mind if I jump into your discussion here, but I >thought I might add the perspective of someone who had never played >ASL prior to the > starter kits coming out. I seriously doubt that I ever would have tried > ASL had I not purchased ASLSK #1. I know several other wargamers who were > not ASL veterans who have also been buying the starter kits. > > Where I have to agree with Arlen is the difficulty of moving beyond SK > 1-3. I played a few games, even lucked into a patient chap who led me > through a game of Guards Counter Attack on VASL, and became very > interested in all of > ASL. I joined list servers like this one and bought all the back issues > of > 'From the Bunker'. I loved the huge variety of all the different > scenarios > out there. Then reality set in on the difficulty of actually getting to > play most of them. Trying to accumulate the maps and modules you need > quickly becomes quite discouraging, unless you're one of those lucky folks > where money is no object. Then you can just pluck down your $1000-1500 > on > Ebay and buy a complete ASL set. I had started to accumulate a few odds > and ends. I have the main rule book, Beyond Valor, Yanks, Paratroopers, > Last Hurrah, Action Pack #2, some CH modules and quite a few Journals. > I'm > at a crossroads now, and frankly there's a good chance I'll probably just > sell off most of this except for the starter kits. I may keep Beyond > Valor > and Yanks, but haven't decided. I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the > Guards. North Africa and the Pacific are two areas I'm quite interested > in, and those are price prohibitive as well. Critical Hit seems to have > done a better job with making many of the Advanced Tobruk modules > self-contained. I have to say that factor alone is leading me to giving > that system a serious look. > > Even if I had all the modules, just organizing everything is daunting > enough. I guess my best bet would be to hook up with a local gamer > who already has all the ASL modules, but the local club generally plays on > Saturday, which is not a good day for me. VASSAL certainly can help > getting around not having the right boards, but I just don't enjoy > online play as much as face-to-face. > > Just thought I would give you the perspective of a newbie. I think > the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even > available, which seems > crazy. I figure by the time Code of the Bushido gets back in print, then > the module with the US Marines, is it Gung Ho?, will be out of print. > I'm just not willing to keep buying one module, hoping the others I > need to play it will eventually come back into print. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:41 AM > To: George Bates; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > George, > Obviously you misunderstood what I was saying. I do give MMP high > marks for > what they have done. However, I give them low marks overall. I am very > thankful for what they have done. However I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. I must humbly disagee with my > right > > proper gentleman when he says that no other orginization could support > the hobby. All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal 2. I might add that the reprint has less > content than the original but will > cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay > $50 > > or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? Too > suggest that NO other orginization could better is simply short > sighted and silly. They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the > campaings. Based on that alone why would a new player want to get into > this hobby? Please explain. I am only trying to be realistic. And yes, > I have set out to aquire > > everything that has ASL on it. But like I said I refuse to purchase > starter kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to > attract new players. As you and David has stated most of these were > purchased by current > > ASL'ers and maybe 4 other people.I would rather see Red Barricades and > Code of Bushido available. And please would someone please tell me the > logic behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or > am I the only person who is interested in N Africa? > Couldnt the time and effort behind this been more wisely spent elsewhere? > Arlen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Bates" > To: "'Arlen Vanek'" > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:34 AM > Subject: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > > Arlen, David certainly spoke for me. I have all three Starter Kits. I > and > many others that I buy for want all ASL product. It's also nice to have > more of some very commonly-used components (M4A3s, Soviet rifle squads, > 2-pdrs, etc...). Also, as a mediocre ASL player the rule booklets and > condensed play serve as a fine reminder of key points of the game that I > have not properly grasped. I sometimes find SK scenarios a tad dry as it > is > not possible to do some things using the truncated ruleset. However, > David > is right when he says that it's great for a quick "beer & pretzels" match > (the original aim of SL...?) and it has also allowed our Yokohama Group to > add 4 new players over 2006 - 2007. > > I'd really like to ask you to re-evaluate your attitude toward MMP. > Their support of the hobby and dedication to quality is far higher > than Avalon Hill ever showed. You should also remember that without > their intervention no new product or product re-releases would be > taking place. Hasbro appeared to have no intention of continuing > publication of the ASL line. You can fault their organization and > limited bandwidth, but I think you should remember that you are seeing > the result of the efforts of 2 core leaders, 3-4 employees and a cadre > of volunteer honchos, designers and playtesters. Given the size of > the market, I don't think there is any other type of organization that > could continue to support the hobby. As I've said > here before, rather than whining about the effort that Curt, Brian, Perry > and their associates give us, we should be worrying about how to sustain > the > hobby should we ever lose them. Our position is really quite frail. > Given > that, I recommend that you lay your hands on every available piece of ASL > kit you come across. Barring flood, pestilence or war, there will be more > coming along shortly, and there is plenty to enjoy now as it is. I > recommend you try J106 "Marders Not Martyrs" as MMP generously included > board "v" for you in Journal 7. > > Cheers! > > George Bates > Yokohama, Japan > Gaming by the Bay 1st Sunday of each month. > Swim on over! We'll leave the light on for you. > > Now in progress: > J110 "Prelude To Spring" German vs. David Olie > 24 "The Mad Minute" US vs. Lee Fehlberg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:27 PM > To: David Olie; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > > I didn't know you spoke for most ASL players. You certainly don't > speak for > me. Me and the people I play with have no intention of buying the starter > kits. However, thanks for setting me straight with what most people think. > > The fact is MMP/AH have done this from the beginning. There is not one > module that I know of that does not require another module or purchase > of some kind. Beyond Valor was close but you also needed the rule > book. > > Do not get me wrong here I love this hobby and will play for as long > as I can imagine. And I do understand the business strategy. However > if MMP is not going to make these items available then its kind of > self defeating. That was my point. I would not and do not have a > problem with there method so much as their inability to supply us with > what we need to play. I mean look at the website. I believe there is > more out of print then there is in print and boards are not even > availble period. Not to mention campaigns. I've tried to get people > interested in the game too and once they find out that most of the > material isn't even available for purchase they shake there > > heads and pull out there axis and allies boards. > > I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I think MMP overall has done > a great job in publishing new material. But I guess I do not need to > address the ridiculousness of offering Few Returned but yet Hollow > Legions is out of > > print. Granted, I know that if someone was interested in buying AP3 > then obviously they wold already have HL. My point is if someone > wanted to enter this hobby I am pretty confident they would become > very disenchanted very quick. Not being able to play any N.Afrika > scenarios. No pacific theatre which is half the war. No southern > europe scenarios. the only thing feasible > > for the beginner is eastern and western front containing no british > troops. Not to mention no campaigns. > > So even though they have done good in producing new material - in my > opinion > > a very poor job in supporting the hobby overall. Because of this I > refuse to > > buy "starter-kits." > > I'm ranting now but I'll tell you. I think that if Curt has no > intention of > ever publishing RB, KFP, BTF BRT ever again then I do not see any reason > why > > MMP should even be in this business. It's fustrating because I do not > want to see the entire hobby go away but yet we are stuck with their > half-ass approach. > > I say all this and yet I just purchased Operation Veritable even > though I already know there is probably no way I'll be able to play it > anytime soon. I just wanted it because I know that once it sells out - > it will go away forever. But then there's the whole ebay thing - dont > get me started. I just > > saw AP1&2 for sale for like $350. Thats outrageous, but what else are > people > > to do if they want the overrun and OBA flow charts? > > side note - i have seen mounted board 52 for sale on ebay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:I > T&item > =140194215360&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI > are these fakes or were they sold by MMP at sometime? does anyone > know? > > I'm done - sorry for the rant, I know I'm not the only one. > > Arlen Vanek > Fort Worth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Olie" > To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Carl D. Fago" > ; > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > >> Arlen wrote: >> >> >>> This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK >>> rules? I do not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there >>> is no difference. >> >> I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not >> changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find >> it remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. >> >>> I >>> just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of >>> the scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I >>> assume the only reason for this is to promote their other products. >>> No problem there I guess. But in reality why would I want to buy >>> starter kits if I am already playing asl to the point where I am >>> buying Action Pack 3? Why would i now backtrack and buy a starter >>> kit? >> >> I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several >> reasons: 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among >> my friends. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. 2. To have >> a simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less cumbersome to >> carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend (and >> full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the >> local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and >> drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" >> role for me much like "Up Front" used to do. >> >>> If this is only to promote and increase >>> sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter >>> kits are for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. >> >> Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. >> That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the >> surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct >> and that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This >> might be > >> part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything >> that has > >> the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my >> personal reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point >> is that most full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now >> considered part of the official "canon" available to scenario >> designers. >> >>> If someone who >>> owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck >>> since I assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be >>> owned. hollow legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the >>> only one here that sees a problems with this. I love the hobby >>> but...do they really need to make this so fustrating? >> >> I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the >> scenarios require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board >> is slated for Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. >> Considering I've only > >> been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not >> losing any > >> sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. >> YMMV. >> >> David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:09:39 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:09:39 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: isnt that what the pre-order process was meant to solve? since red barricades brings well over $150 as is I would buy 10 copies myself. not to mention the prices i've seen for Bridge to Far. If consumers or independant dealers are getting $250 per copy or more why wouldn't MMP? They could at least give it a shot is all i am saying. I'd put my next paycheck up to say that there are overseas printers that could get this done if the cost is that out of control. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Pickering" To: "Arlen Vanek" Cc: "George Bates" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > Regarding "too much to handle" and "Why campaigns": > On Jan 2, 2008 10:33 AM, Arlen Vanek wrote: >> I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can do a >> better job than a company that could devote a full time professional >> staff. >> (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never brought >> up >> any of these issues with them I am just talking about general questions >> about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them on >> the >> phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them personally >> or >> their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP deserves >> all >> the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that if >> it's >> too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to such a >> company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. >> Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to this >> at >> all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious market >> for >> such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for all >> their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good did >> it >> do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they will be. >> They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only point. My >> concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt >> decides >> to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think it >> would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this if >> given >> the opportunity. >> >> Arlen Vanek >> >> Fort Worth, TX >> > > Glad to finally see some new-years' traffic on the ASLML, even if it > is an ancient flamewar topic! >:-) > > I think that George has really answered these both, when he made > reference to the economics of small print runs. > > Why isn't anyone else interested in taking on the company and making a > major, full-time career out of it? Because it isn't economical to try; > > Why are the CGs one-time items, as opposed to being core modules that > HAVE to get reprinted eventually? Because it is even less economical > to reprint the smaller numbers for people new to the hobby. > > It's a lot like books; take a look at "Off the Wall at Callahan's", by > Spider Robinson > (http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Callahans-Spider-Robinson/dp/B000H2MFJK/ref=pd_bbs_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199302028&sr=8-11). > I'm sure that Spider would love for it to be in-print and available > for his fans, BUT... there just aren't enough of us to justify a full > print run at a price which the majority of people would be willing to > pay, so if I want a copy, I need to go to the Used Book market. > Fortunately, it's not too unreasonable, BUT... no new copies > available, and are highly unlikely to ever be again, because Spider > just isn't an A-List author, and so is rather limited in his reprint > possibilities. > > Likewise, > 1) ASL just isn't ever going to have the volume to justify REALLY big > print runs on new items. We can all dream about a day when ASL is as > popular as Monopoly (or even something like Settlers of Cataan), but I > don't expect to see it within my lifetime. > > 2) As long as copies ARE available on the used market for $100 (let's > say) for a particular module, then it doesn't make good business sense > to do a run of 500 copies if a) only 100 of them will sell any time > soon (unsold stock is effectively money wasted, as far as a business > is concerned), and b) the sale price to simply recoup expenses needs > to be in the range of $150 (again, let's say. George is the one with > the publishing experience, not me, but I've seen enough of these > discussions to back-of-the-envelope them). While I know there ARE > people out there who will buy anything if it says ASL, even if they > already had a copy, I'm certainly not one of them, and I don't know > too many who are. Certainly not enough to justify printing 500-1000 > copies... not from a BUSINESS standpoint. > > Anyone who tries to run a business that way is living out the old joke > about many hobbies: > > Q: How do you make a little stack of money in ? > > A: Start with a BIG stack of money. > > Put a couple $100,000 of your own money on the table, and I bet they > will start doing things your way. > > I also bet you'll end up with pennies on your dollar... dimes at best. > I can't throw away that kind of money, and I'll be that Curt isn't > going to be doing it either. > > Before That Company That Shall Not Be Named (OK, Critical Hit) is > brought up as an example, they seem to be doing a large volume of > their business on the basis of Cash Up Front. I've stopped > pre-ordering anything from them, simply because they take my money > RIGHT THEN for a product which may not have even been completely laid > out, much less printed and ready to deliver, and then don't deliver it > for months to (in one case) over a year. Thus, I've been turned into > an Investor in the company, but my only returns are the product at the > end of the delivery. Not a huge ROI. If I decide I want any more CH > stuff (quite likely, although I haven't been buying much of ANY kind > of gaming materials the past year), I'll buy only what is already > released, from a reputable broker like Alex Key. I'll often still save > money over the MSRP, but I'll get delivery within days or weeks, not > months or a year. > > MMP has decided to take the approach which allows them to sell to Real > Game Stores more effectively, that of only billing/expecting payment > when something actually ships. No game store is going to pony up $300 > for 10 copies of a product they MIGHT be able to sell 6 months or more > from now; I'm sure they all pay 30 days net on the delivery invoice, > like most any other retailer. > > OK, end ad-hominem attack, such as it is. Seriously, though, one can't > compare the two, because they take seriously different marketing > approaches. Each is correct, for a given "Market". > > -- > Brian Pickering > bpickeri at gmail.com > From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:34:12 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:34:12 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <002701c84d79$8b4bc780$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Message-ID: I'm not telling anyone how to run their business. As I have said over and over and over I am impressed with MMP and their efforts and their products. That is not the issue I am bringing up. I totally understand the business model. My only point was simply this. What good does something like a starter kit do if the entire line will never be available? What good does AP3 do when Hollow Legions cannot be bought? Yes - many people have all the modules - yes AP3 appeals to them - me included I bought it. But why waste time trying to attract new players when new players will never be satisfied with a full line of core modules. And also why continue with each module needing further purchases when those purchaces are not available? It's almost an insult to me that a scenario in AP3 would need half of board y. You mean to tell me that with over 40 boards available that there is something so special with board y? Or maybe MMP wants me to buy SK1. I won't. I'm not interested in it, I know you are. That is why I personally think and its just my opinion here, I think the effort in making the starter kits was a noble effort on their part, but those resources could have been better spent on core modules and campaigns. Because as I predicted and Jeff has somewhat confirmed new players will soon become disenchanted and will never be the hard core hobbists that we are. Considering all of what you said - which is true, why even try to attract new players with a watered down version? Thats my only issue with this whole ancient argument. I never thought it would gererate this much traffic but it also doesn't surprise me. We are all passionate about this hobby - at least those of us own anything other than starter kits and Beyond Valor. Please understand - I do support MMP. I am a regular customer of theirs and have spent 100's of dollars with them and will continue. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bates" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:56 PM Subject: RE3: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) Arlen, please understand. The market is too small to sustain the kind of corporate effort you would like to see. Avalon Hill's poor management notwithstanding, the industry was consolidating and all the game publishing companies of it's era are gone. Hasbro did not intend to publish any MMP titles at all because in their mind it was too small a revenue stream. It was left to MMP to pick up the ball. If another entity thought it could make enough money off of the product line they would have outbid MMP for those rights. To date, nobody has. WRT to the historical modules going out of print, that is the way of it. Per my illustration with a classic CD, all kinds of wonderful works of art go out of print or become collector's items every year. It is not anyone's place to tell a producer what goods they should keep on their shelves. You are just going to have to wait for a few King & Country components to get printed. Sometimes vendors are out of stock. If you've called around to retailers in your area and nobody's got a last one left on the on the shelf, perhaps some good Samaritan will spot one in their local game store and grab it for you. If not, suck it in and wait. The upshot of my missives is that it's all about Hasbro's rights, MMP's effort, MMP's risk and not yours. I think you've got very little business telling them how to run their business. Please take a time out from your dust up, take a deep breath and hold it a while, and consider that the glass could indeed be half-full, not half-empty. I'm done on this subject. Cheers! - G -----Original Message----- From: Arlen Vanek [mailto:arlenvanek at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 3:33 AM To: George Bates; jefftcurtis at earthlink.net; aslml-aslml.net at lists.aslml.net Subject: Re: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can do a better job than a company that could devote a full time professional staff. (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never brought up any of these issues with them I am just talking about general questions about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them on the phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them personally or their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP deserves all the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that if it's too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to such a company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to this at all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious market for such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for all their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good did it do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they will be. They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only point. My concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt decides to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think it would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this if given the opportunity. Arlen Vanek Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bates" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: RE2: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) Arlen, thanks for forwarding Jeff's message as I don't think it made it to the List. The two of you have a lot of different beefs and I can't touch on them all, nor can I be a spokesperson for MMP. I'm not sure how long either of you have been active in the hobby but I'll address a few topics that have seen considerable coverage here and on Consim. Here are some generally (not universally!) accepted understandings for some of the concerns you raise. > I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. . > I said I refuse to purchase starter kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to attract new players. BATES: 4 players in this locality. The numbers add up as you tally the ASL communities around the globe. Take a look at the ASLSK page on Consim and you'll see a very vibrant new community of players inspired by the SKs. If you don't want the SKs, fine. But we need at least a few pimply adolescents to pick them up before too many of us have coronaries or go senile. > All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. BATES: Actually, it's a lot to ask given what was left at Avalon Hill. Although MMP recovered the stock that Hasbro had removed from Maryland to their warehouse in Boston, most of the original material and artwork were lost (and none of it was in digital format). As that stock has sold down MMP have had to rebuild the rulebook, Beyond Valor, Hollow Legions, the UK/Commonwealth forces in FKAC _and_ redraw all the maps from scratch. Likewise, all the other core modules need to be re-written. 3rd edition Hollow Legions with Chapter F and a new combo Chapter G module (Code of Ho?) are in the production pipeline. They are going to require years to draw, type, incorporate errata, proof and test. This is an endeavor for far-sighted, patient and persevering people and would take a company the size of the former Avalon Hill years to accomplish. MMP deserves a standing ovation for preserving the hobby from the smoking ruins of Avalon Hill. When you're done clapping, sit down and play a few scenarios while you wait. Or play a certain Carly Simon song while you watch the ketchup (maybe catsup in your area) flow toward the mouth of the bottle... > It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal 2. I might add that the reprint has less content than the original but > will cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen > people pay > $50 or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? BATES: The answer here is that yes, this is an accurate reflection of production costs for a very limited run of a 4-color offset printed magazine. We are talking about a 2 or 3 thousand units here. As someone with a long career in document management and printing I can tell you that you do not reach economies of scale on these machines until you have run tens or hundreds of thousands. The setup costs have to be absorbed by a much smaller volume resulting in a very steep unit cost on low print runs. You are free to speculate on what their margins might be, but as Brian & Perry have not quit their day jobs nor are they driving Lexus' I would suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. If you don't want to pay the pre-order price of $37.50, don't. > They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the campaings. BATES: Right. Because the historical modules are one-offs. They were never meant to be reprinted. Only core modules are kept in print. Red Barricades was popular enough to re-appear in in 2nd edition Beyond Valor and might get another run in conjunction with Red October since the terrain is adjacent, but don't look for reissues of any of these items or any action packs, scenario packs, Annuals or Journals (J2 again being a special case). If you missed them, you missed them. I missed Action Pack 1 and Streets of Fire. Both were gone by the time I rejoined the hobby. Used is our only option. (OT: Anyone wanna sell me their CD of Tupelo Honey? I'm gonna have to buy it used on Amazon) > And please would someone please tell me the logic > behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or am I > the only person who is interested in N Africa? BATES: FKAC represents a choice by MMP that they clrearly explained to the playing public at the time. There were many problems reproducing West of Alamein as is. One is that the UK/Commonwealth forces participated in every theatre of the war from beginning to end. There were also numerous maps that still needed a permanent home, and a trove of out-of-print General & Annual scenarios featuring the Brits that deserved a place in a core module. Trying to tackle Chapter F and the desert maps and overlays (all of which need to be created again from scratch, mind you) on top of that would have delayed the project further and resulted in a monstrous price tag. MMP felt it best to get the entire British OB, the scenarios and the maps out to the public first and deal with desert in another bite. Per the above, it seems that Chapter F will have a home with the Eyties. > I think the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to > look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even > available, which seems crazy. BATES: Understandable frustration, but one that has to a great extent been fixed. Players looking for fresh meat once they've chewed through SKs 1, 2 & 3 can now knock themselves out on Beyond Valor, Yanks, For King & Country, Croix de Guerre and Armies of Oblivion, plus Partisan & Last Hurrah with a new Doomed Battalions in the wings. Pegasus Bridge and Op Veritable are also available and playable. So are the last three Journals. Plenty to play now. The reason for the gap as I've noted before elsewhere is that MMP is trying to do three things at once - rebuild the core kit and keep it in print, develop new product, and create a ramp into the hobby that will expand it's base to a market size that will sustain the hobby after the original group of players die. It's very difficult to sustain an even effort on all three fronts. I put it to you that it's very presumptuous to think that you or I or anyone else could do a better job than MMP have. > I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the Guards. BATES: NOOOOOOO! Avast! Belay! You will _kick_ yourself around your block 10 times if you do not get this. You already have everything you need to play and the word-of-mouth on this product is very, very good. Brian just announced on Consim today that the last of the components are at the printer. They may yet hit their (often revised) target of opening sales at Winter Offensive on the 17th. Get that pre-order back up NOW. > but I just don't enjoy online play as much as face-to-face. BATES: HEAR, HEAR! David and I can also vouch for Skype as a much more personable form of long-distance play. But as a new player, the best thing you can do for yourself is to buddy up with someone who has been in the game a while. It will do great things for your learning curve, he'll help you get organized, and he probably has all the kit you missed. He may even have a spare one to give you. Let me wrap by suggesting that you get as much mileage as you can from the copious amount of kit you have already acquired. At a rate of 2-3 scenarios per week (I'm nowhere near that!) you won't exhaust your options for several years yet. If you want to see more material get to print sooner, volunteer to playtest or proof. I can't emphasize strongly enough that the only way our hobby will stay alive is through individual contributions of effort. Cheers! - G -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:55 AM To: Jeff Curtis; aslml at lists.aslml.net Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) This illustrated my point to perfection.(see below) I only hope the the folks at MMP are listening. I never questioned their passion or their quality of product. I simply am stating the obvious. I never even questioned the Starter Kits in general, it's a great idea, but very self-defeating if the rest of game is unavailable. It's a shame we have to lose players like Jeff. I would have bought Gung Ho already but I am very reluctant since Code of Bushido will never get reprinted, BRT will never get reprinted and if they ever repackage these modules like the plan is that may not happen until 2020. Thats a realistic possibility since it took at least a decade for DB and AoO to hit the shelf. Given this, does it surprise anyone that Gung Ho never sold out of its original printing? Why buy something I can't play anyway? AV Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Curtis" To: "'Arlen Vanek'" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: RE: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) >I hope you all don't mind if I jump into your discussion here, but I >thought I might add the perspective of someone who had never played >ASL prior to the > starter kits coming out. I seriously doubt that I ever would have tried > ASL had I not purchased ASLSK #1. I know several other wargamers who were > not ASL veterans who have also been buying the starter kits. > > Where I have to agree with Arlen is the difficulty of moving beyond SK > 1-3. I played a few games, even lucked into a patient chap who led me > through a game of Guards Counter Attack on VASL, and became very > interested in all of > ASL. I joined list servers like this one and bought all the back issues > of > 'From the Bunker'. I loved the huge variety of all the different > scenarios > out there. Then reality set in on the difficulty of actually getting to > play most of them. Trying to accumulate the maps and modules you need > quickly becomes quite discouraging, unless you're one of those lucky folks > where money is no object. Then you can just pluck down your $1000-1500 > on > Ebay and buy a complete ASL set. I had started to accumulate a few odds > and ends. I have the main rule book, Beyond Valor, Yanks, Paratroopers, > Last Hurrah, Action Pack #2, some CH modules and quite a few Journals. > I'm > at a crossroads now, and frankly there's a good chance I'll probably just > sell off most of this except for the starter kits. I may keep Beyond > Valor > and Yanks, but haven't decided. I cancelled my pre-order of Valor of the > Guards. North Africa and the Pacific are two areas I'm quite interested > in, and those are price prohibitive as well. Critical Hit seems to have > done a better job with making many of the Advanced Tobruk modules > self-contained. I have to say that factor alone is leading me to giving > that system a serious look. > > Even if I had all the modules, just organizing everything is daunting > enough. I guess my best bet would be to hook up with a local gamer > who already has all the ASL modules, but the local club generally plays on > Saturday, which is not a good day for me. VASSAL certainly can help > getting around not having the right boards, but I just don't enjoy > online play as much as face-to-face. > > Just thought I would give you the perspective of a newbie. I think > the starter kits have worked well at getting new people to look at ASL > and give it a try, but it's still a difficult step to move on from > there. Heck, when I bought SK1, I don't think Beyond Valor was even > available, which seems > crazy. I figure by the time Code of the Bushido gets back in print, then > the module with the US Marines, is it Gung Ho?, will be out of print. > I'm just not willing to keep buying one module, hoping the others I > need to play it will eventually come back into print. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 9:41 AM > To: George Bates; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > George, > Obviously you misunderstood what I was saying. I do give MMP high > marks for > what they have done. However, I give them low marks overall. I am very > thankful for what they have done. However I certainly doubt that 4 new > players will keep them in business long. I must humbly disagee with my > right > > proper gentleman when he says that no other orginization could support > the hobby. All I want is all of the core modules available at one > time. Surely thats not too much to ask. It seems to me that limited > supply drives prices up which benefits them only. Example is look at > the retail price of Journal 2. I might add that the reprint has less > content than the original but will > cost twice as much. Do you think this is because they've seen people pay > $50 > > or more already or because this represents their pruduction costs? Too > suggest that NO other orginization could better is simply short > sighted and silly. They admittingly have no plans to ever reissuse the > campaings. Based on that alone why would a new player want to get into > this hobby? Please explain. I am only trying to be realistic. And yes, > I have set out to aquire > > everything that has ASL on it. But like I said I refuse to purchase > starter kits since In my opinion this is a self-sefeating attempt to > attract new players. As you and David has stated most of these were > purchased by current > > ASL'ers and maybe 4 other people.I would rather see Red Barricades and > Code of Bushido available. And please would someone please tell me the > logic behind FKaC. I still dont get it. Where are the desert maps? Or > am I the only person who is interested in N Africa? > Couldnt the time and effort behind this been more wisely spent elsewhere? > Arlen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Bates" > To: "'Arlen Vanek'" > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:34 AM > Subject: Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > > Arlen, David certainly spoke for me. I have all three Starter Kits. I > and > many others that I buy for want all ASL product. It's also nice to have > more of some very commonly-used components (M4A3s, Soviet rifle squads, > 2-pdrs, etc...). Also, as a mediocre ASL player the rule booklets and > condensed play serve as a fine reminder of key points of the game that I > have not properly grasped. I sometimes find SK scenarios a tad dry as it > is > not possible to do some things using the truncated ruleset. However, > David > is right when he says that it's great for a quick "beer & pretzels" match > (the original aim of SL...?) and it has also allowed our Yokohama Group to > add 4 new players over 2006 - 2007. > > I'd really like to ask you to re-evaluate your attitude toward MMP. > Their support of the hobby and dedication to quality is far higher > than Avalon Hill ever showed. You should also remember that without > their intervention no new product or product re-releases would be > taking place. Hasbro appeared to have no intention of continuing > publication of the ASL line. You can fault their organization and > limited bandwidth, but I think you should remember that you are seeing > the result of the efforts of 2 core leaders, 3-4 employees and a cadre > of volunteer honchos, designers and playtesters. Given the size of > the market, I don't think there is any other type of organization that > could continue to support the hobby. As I've said > here before, rather than whining about the effort that Curt, Brian, Perry > and their associates give us, we should be worrying about how to sustain > the > hobby should we ever lose them. Our position is really quite frail. > Given > that, I recommend that you lay your hands on every available piece of ASL > kit you come across. Barring flood, pestilence or war, there will be more > coming along shortly, and there is plenty to enjoy now as it is. I > recommend you try J106 "Marders Not Martyrs" as MMP generously included > board "v" for you in Journal 7. > > Cheers! > > George Bates > Yokohama, Japan > Gaming by the Bay 1st Sunday of each month. > Swim on over! We'll leave the light on for you. > > Now in progress: > J110 "Prelude To Spring" German vs. David Olie > 24 "The Mad Minute" US vs. Lee Fehlberg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net > [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] > On Behalf Of Arlen Vanek > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:27 PM > To: David Olie; aslml at lists.aslml.net > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > > I didn't know you spoke for most ASL players. You certainly don't > speak for > me. Me and the people I play with have no intention of buying the starter > kits. However, thanks for setting me straight with what most people think. > > The fact is MMP/AH have done this from the beginning. There is not one > module that I know of that does not require another module or purchase > of some kind. Beyond Valor was close but you also needed the rule > book. > > Do not get me wrong here I love this hobby and will play for as long > as I can imagine. And I do understand the business strategy. However > if MMP is not going to make these items available then its kind of > self defeating. That was my point. I would not and do not have a > problem with there method so much as their inability to supply us with > what we need to play. I mean look at the website. I believe there is > more out of print then there is in print and boards are not even > availble period. Not to mention campaigns. I've tried to get people > interested in the game too and once they find out that most of the > material isn't even available for purchase they shake there > > heads and pull out there axis and allies boards. > > I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I think MMP overall has done > a great job in publishing new material. But I guess I do not need to > address the ridiculousness of offering Few Returned but yet Hollow > Legions is out of > > print. Granted, I know that if someone was interested in buying AP3 > then obviously they wold already have HL. My point is if someone > wanted to enter this hobby I am pretty confident they would become > very disenchanted very quick. Not being able to play any N.Afrika > scenarios. No pacific theatre which is half the war. No southern > europe scenarios. the only thing feasible > > for the beginner is eastern and western front containing no british > troops. Not to mention no campaigns. > > So even though they have done good in producing new material - in my > opinion > > a very poor job in supporting the hobby overall. Because of this I > refuse to > > buy "starter-kits." > > I'm ranting now but I'll tell you. I think that if Curt has no > intention of > ever publishing RB, KFP, BTF BRT ever again then I do not see any reason > why > > MMP should even be in this business. It's fustrating because I do not > want to see the entire hobby go away but yet we are stuck with their > half-ass approach. > > I say all this and yet I just purchased Operation Veritable even > though I already know there is probably no way I'll be able to play it > anytime soon. I just wanted it because I know that once it sells out - > it will go away forever. But then there's the whole ebay thing - dont > get me started. I just > > saw AP1&2 for sale for like $350. Thats outrageous, but what else are > people > > to do if they want the overrun and OBA flow charts? > > side note - i have seen mounted board 52 for sale on ebay > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBTOX:I > T&item > =140194215360&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI > are these fakes or were they sold by MMP at sometime? does anyone > know? > > I'm done - sorry for the rant, I know I'm not the only one. > > Arlen Vanek > Fort Worth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Olie" > To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Carl D. Fago" > ; > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Aslml] AFV in building, +1 Hindrance? > > >> Arlen wrote: >> >> >>> This brings up a question. Is there that big a difference in SK >>> rules? I do not own any starter kits. It would seem to me that there >>> is no difference. >> >> I own ASLSK#1. The difference is that the SK rules are reduced, not >> changed. A whole lot of stuff in the ASLRB is simply left out. I find >> it remarkably easy to switch from one system to the other. >> >>> I >>> just bought Few Returned and was disappointed to find that one of >>> the scenarios uses a SK map. (MMP/AH up to their old tricks). I >>> assume the only reason for this is to promote their other products. >>> No problem there I guess. But in reality why would I want to buy >>> starter kits if I am already playing asl to the point where I am >>> buying Action Pack 3? Why would i now backtrack and buy a starter >>> kit? >> >> I've been playing ASL since 1986. I bought ASLSK#1, for several >> reasons: 1. As a tool to try to recruit some new players from among >> my friends. Hasn't happened yet, but I remain optimistic. 2. To have >> a simplified version of ASL that plays fast and is less cumbersome to >> carry around. One night this past summer a visiting friend (and >> full-ASL player) and I picked up my ASLSK#1 and headed down to the >> local pub for "Game Night". We had a blast playing 2 scenarios and >> drinking draft beer all the while. The ASLSK fills a "change of pace" >> role for me much like "Up Front" used to do. >> >>> If this is only to promote and increase >>> sales of starter kits I am out on that. It would to me that starter >>> kits are for starters and not for the more advanced player of asl. >> >> Well, the fact is that most full-ASL players bought at least ASLSK#1. >> That's the reason the first printing sold out so fast, much to the >> surprise of MMP. They were assuming that your PoV would be correct >> and that most of us old-timers wouldn't bother. They were wrong. This >> might be > >> part of the old "ASL-potato" phenomenon, where we'll buy anything >> that has > >> the ASL logo on it. Or the sales might have been motivated by my >> personal reasons stated above. Or something else. Whatever. The point >> is that most full-ASL players have the ASLSK boards, and they are now >> considered part of the official "canon" available to scenario >> designers. >> >>> If someone who >>> owns all three SK would have bought AP3 they would be out of luck >>> since I assume beyond valor and hollow legions would have to be >>> owned. hollow legions being out of print means - too bad. Am i the >>> only one here that sees a problems with this. I love the hobby >>> but...do they really need to make this so fustrating? >> >> I got "Operation Watchtower" as a gift 6 years ago. Two of the >> scenarios require Board 52. I can't play them yet because that board >> is slated for Haakka Paalle, whenever it comes out. Meh, whatever. >> Considering I've only > >> been able to actually play one OW scenario in six years I'm not >> losing any > >> sleep over it. I've got plenty to keep me busy until HP comes out. >> YMMV. >> >> David "so mellow it's almost obscene" Olie >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From bpickeri at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:34:42 2008 From: bpickeri at gmail.com (Brian Pickering) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:34:42 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.com> The numbers I gave tell you why: Let's say that MMP wants to sell RB at $150 a crack (assume 10% profit, which AFAIK might be ludicrously over-indulgent, so they need to pay $135, whether in printing, packaging, electricity to run the lights/website, or any other overhead, to get those boxes out the door, and would theoretically make $15 apiece). To get that, maybe they need to order 500 copies, maybe 1000. Not sure, but I doubt they can just order 50-100 copies without the price rising to $250, $300, or more. Simply producing those 500 copies will cost $67,500 out of MMP's pockets. Thus, in order to simply RECOUP THEIR INVESTMENT (i.e., stay in business, instead of funding our additions out of their pockets), MMP needs to sell 450 copies. At that point MMP won't have made any money, but at least they won't have LOST any money. I don't think that even the most optimistic AND REALISTIC ASL proponent would claim there is a market for 450+ independent copies of RB. First of all, (and I know this verges on heresy), not every ASL fan wants to do CGs, or enjoys urban slugfests, or can afford $150/copy for something that may not get the level of replay which BV, FKAK, or any of the other Core modules would provide. I guess they COULD put it up for pre-order, but that would then they wouldn't be able to go with the "Add to another product" choice, because people would start complaining about THAT option. I don't think that MMP will ever print RB on its own again. Perhaps someday as an adjunct to another product, but MMP isn't in business to lose money. They're in business to see that this game stays alive, yes, but read those first three words again: THEY'RE IN BUSINESS If they don't follow simple marketplace economics, they won't stay in business, and as George pointed out, no-one else even was willing to outbid MMP for the license. That means that likely either no-one else has the money to outbid MMP (and hence, will be even LESS willing to spend that money foolishly), or that no-one else thinks that ASL has the potential market to justify the expenditure (as the Hasborg did, in deciding not to market ASL on its own). Neither of those options (nor any other I've managed to think of over the years) is any better for ASL. I say, GO MMP!!!!!!!!!! Great job with limited resources! If you want to play a game with new releases every quarter, you'll need to go for something suitably mass-market to support the expenses of those releases. Maybe http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/ I know, it doesn't have the depth of the history or detail to go with it. Perhaps it'll be enjoyable, though.* Brian Pickering * Excuse me, anyone have a prybar? Gotta get this tongue outa my cheek, and it's lodged in there pretty-well.... On Jan 2, 2008 12:09 PM, Arlen Vanek wrote: > isnt that what the pre-order process was meant to solve? > since red barricades brings well over $150 as is I would buy 10 copies > myself. not to mention the prices i've seen for Bridge to Far. If consumers > or independant dealers are getting $250 per copy or more why wouldn't MMP? > They could at least give it a shot is all i am saying. > I'd put my next paycheck up to say that there are overseas printers that > could get this done if the cost is that out of control. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Pickering" > To: "Arlen Vanek" > Cc: "George Bates" ; ; > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > > > Regarding "too much to handle" and "Why campaigns": > > On Jan 2, 2008 10:33 AM, Arlen Vanek wrote: > >> I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can do a > >> better job than a company that could devote a full time professional > >> staff. > >> (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never brought > >> up > >> any of these issues with them I am just talking about general questions > >> about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them on > >> the > >> phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them personally > >> or > >> their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP deserves > >> all > >> the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that if > >> it's > >> too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to such a > >> company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. > >> Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to this > >> at > >> all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious market > >> for > >> such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for all > >> their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good did > >> it > >> do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they will be. > >> They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only point. My > >> concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt > >> decides > >> to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think it > >> would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this if > >> given > >> the opportunity. > >> > >> Arlen Vanek > >> > >> Fort Worth, TX > >> > > > > Glad to finally see some new-years' traffic on the ASLML, even if it > > is an ancient flamewar topic! >:-) > > > > I think that George has really answered these both, when he made > > reference to the economics of small print runs. > > > > Why isn't anyone else interested in taking on the company and making a > > major, full-time career out of it? Because it isn't economical to try; > > > > Why are the CGs one-time items, as opposed to being core modules that > > HAVE to get reprinted eventually? Because it is even less economical > > to reprint the smaller numbers for people new to the hobby. > > > > It's a lot like books; take a look at "Off the Wall at Callahan's", by > > Spider Robinson > > (http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Callahans-Spider-Robinson/dp/B000H2MFJK/ref=pd_bbs_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199302028&sr=8-11). > > I'm sure that Spider would love for it to be in-print and available > > for his fans, BUT... there just aren't enough of us to justify a full > > print run at a price which the majority of people would be willing to > > pay, so if I want a copy, I need to go to the Used Book market. > > Fortunately, it's not too unreasonable, BUT... no new copies > > available, and are highly unlikely to ever be again, because Spider > > just isn't an A-List author, and so is rather limited in his reprint > > possibilities. > > > > Likewise, > > 1) ASL just isn't ever going to have the volume to justify REALLY big > > print runs on new items. We can all dream about a day when ASL is as > > popular as Monopoly (or even something like Settlers of Cataan), but I > > don't expect to see it within my lifetime. > > > > 2) As long as copies ARE available on the used market for $100 (let's > > say) for a particular module, then it doesn't make good business sense > > to do a run of 500 copies if a) only 100 of them will sell any time > > soon (unsold stock is effectively money wasted, as far as a business > > is concerned), and b) the sale price to simply recoup expenses needs > > to be in the range of $150 (again, let's say. George is the one with > > the publishing experience, not me, but I've seen enough of these > > discussions to back-of-the-envelope them). While I know there ARE > > people out there who will buy anything if it says ASL, even if they > > already had a copy, I'm certainly not one of them, and I don't know > > too many who are. Certainly not enough to justify printing 500-1000 > > copies... not from a BUSINESS standpoint. > > > > Anyone who tries to run a business that way is living out the old joke > > about many hobbies: > > > > Q: How do you make a little stack of money in ? > > > > A: Start with a BIG stack of money. > > > > Put a couple $100,000 of your own money on the table, and I bet they > > will start doing things your way. > > > > I also bet you'll end up with pennies on your dollar... dimes at best. > > I can't throw away that kind of money, and I'll be that Curt isn't > > going to be doing it either. > > > > Before That Company That Shall Not Be Named (OK, Critical Hit) is > > brought up as an example, they seem to be doing a large volume of > > their business on the basis of Cash Up Front. I've stopped > > pre-ordering anything from them, simply because they take my money > > RIGHT THEN for a product which may not have even been completely laid > > out, much less printed and ready to deliver, and then don't deliver it > > for months to (in one case) over a year. Thus, I've been turned into > > an Investor in the company, but my only returns are the product at the > > end of the delivery. Not a huge ROI. If I decide I want any more CH > > stuff (quite likely, although I haven't been buying much of ANY kind > > of gaming materials the past year), I'll buy only what is already > > released, from a reputable broker like Alex Key. I'll often still save > > money over the MSRP, but I'll get delivery within days or weeks, not > > months or a year. > > > > MMP has decided to take the approach which allows them to sell to Real > > Game Stores more effectively, that of only billing/expecting payment > > when something actually ships. No game store is going to pony up $300 > > for 10 copies of a product they MIGHT be able to sell 6 months or more > > from now; I'm sure they all pay 30 days net on the delivery invoice, > > like most any other retailer. > > > > OK, end ad-hominem attack, such as it is. Seriously, though, one can't > > compare the two, because they take seriously different marketing > > approaches. Each is correct, for a given "Market". > > > > -- > > Brian Pickering > > bpickeri at gmail.com > > > > -- Brian Pickering bpickeri at gmail.com From swfancher at mindspring.com Wed Jan 2 18:32:43 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:32:43 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.co m> References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080102212208.0217fc10@pop.mindspring.com> Not intending to pour gasoline on the fire here, but... The Historical Studies (which are most similar to the HASLs) are both priced at less than $50 at full MSRP. VotG has an estimated retail price of $65. So I highly doubt that the cost of producing new RB modules would approach anything close to $135. All discussion about the boards aside, to me the far bigger issue is the non-availability of the rules (and hence I agree with Arlen that producing FKaC (without Chapter F) as opposed to re-printing WoA was a mistake. With VASL (where you don't need to own the boards or counters) or an ASL buddy who has the components, what is really needed is additional copies of the required rules chapters. Of course, several people on the ASLML/ASL Forums/Consim could care less about legal niceties such as copyright law and simply photocopy the rules in these cases. Hard for me to feel bad for MMP though, if they aren't actually selling the product themselves. As for the cash outlay required to initiate a print run...I agree, that can be a substantial amount of money. Of course, MMP is also laying out money for new CCACW, DAK, IGS, The Gamers and a number of other game line products. So it would appear that initial cash outlay is not as much an obstacle for them as simply getting product ready to go to press (proofing rules pages and counters and maps and such) is. At 03:34 PM 1/2/2008, Brian Pickering wrote: >The numbers I gave tell you why: > >Let's say that MMP wants to sell RB at $150 a crack (assume 10% >profit, which AFAIK might be ludicrously over-indulgent, so they need >to pay $135, whether in printing, packaging, electricity to run the >lights/website, or any other overhead, to get those boxes out the >door, and would theoretically make $15 apiece). To get that, maybe >they need to order 500 copies, maybe 1000. Not sure, but I doubt they >can just order 50-100 copies without the price rising to $250, $300, >or more. > >Simply producing those 500 copies will cost $67,500 out of MMP's pockets. > >Thus, in order to simply RECOUP THEIR INVESTMENT (i.e., stay in >business, instead of funding our additions out of their pockets), MMP >needs to sell 450 copies. At that point MMP won't have made any money, >but at least they won't have LOST any money. > >I don't think that even the most optimistic AND REALISTIC ASL >proponent would claim there is a market for 450+ independent copies of >RB. First of all, (and I know this verges on heresy), not every ASL >fan wants to do CGs, or enjoys urban slugfests, or can afford >$150/copy for something that may not get the level of replay which BV, >FKAK, or any of the other Core modules would provide. I guess they >COULD put it up for pre-order, but that would then they wouldn't be >able to go with the "Add to another product" choice, because people >would start complaining about THAT option. > >I don't think that MMP will ever print RB on its own again. Perhaps >someday as an adjunct to another product, but MMP isn't in business to >lose money. They're in business to see that this game stays alive, >yes, but read those first three words again: > >THEY'RE IN BUSINESS > >If they don't follow simple marketplace economics, they won't stay in >business, and as George pointed out, no-one else even was willing to >outbid MMP for the license. > >That means that likely either no-one else has the money to outbid MMP >(and hence, will be even LESS willing to spend that money foolishly), >or that no-one else thinks that ASL has the potential market to >justify the expenditure (as the Hasborg did, in deciding not to market >ASL on its own). > >Neither of those options (nor any other I've managed to think of over >the years) is any better for ASL. > >I say, GO MMP!!!!!!!!!! Great job with limited resources! > >If you want to play a game with new releases every quarter, you'll >need to go for something suitably mass-market to support the expenses >of those releases. Maybe http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/ > >I know, it doesn't have the depth of the history or detail to go with >it. Perhaps it'll be enjoyable, though.* > >Brian Pickering > >* Excuse me, anyone have a prybar? Gotta get this tongue outa my >cheek, and it's lodged in there pretty-well.... > >On Jan 2, 2008 12:09 PM, Arlen Vanek wrote: > > isnt that what the pre-order process was meant to solve? > > since red barricades brings well over $150 as is I would buy 10 copies > > myself. not to mention the prices i've seen for Bridge to Far. If consumers > > or independant dealers are getting $250 per copy or more why wouldn't MMP? > > They could at least give it a shot is all i am saying. > > I'd put my next paycheck up to say that there are overseas printers that > > could get this done if the cost is that out of control. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian Pickering" > > To: "Arlen Vanek" > > Cc: "George Bates" ; ; > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > > > > > > > Regarding "too much to handle" and "Why campaigns": > > > On Jan 2, 2008 10:33 AM, Arlen Vanek wrote: > > >> I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can do a > > >> better job than a company that could devote a full time professional > > >> staff. > > >> (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never > brought > > >> up > > >> any of these issues with them I am just talking about general questions > > >> about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them on > > >> the > > >> phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them personally > > >> or > > >> their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP deserves > > >> all > > >> the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that if > > >> it's > > >> too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to such a > > >> company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. > > >> Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to this > > >> at > > >> all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious market > > >> for > > >> such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for all > > >> their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good did > > >> it > > >> do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they > will be. > > >> They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only point. My > > >> concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt > > >> decides > > >> to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think it > > >> would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this if > > >> given > > >> the opportunity. > > >> > > >> Arlen Vanek > > >> > > >> Fort Worth, TX > > >> > > > > > > Glad to finally see some new-years' traffic on the ASLML, even if it > > > is an ancient flamewar topic! >:-) > > > > > > I think that George has really answered these both, when he made > > > reference to the economics of small print runs. > > > > > > Why isn't anyone else interested in taking on the company and making a > > > major, full-time career out of it? Because it isn't economical to try; > > > > > > Why are the CGs one-time items, as opposed to being core modules that > > > HAVE to get reprinted eventually? Because it is even less economical > > > to reprint the smaller numbers for people new to the hobby. > > > > > > It's a lot like books; take a look at "Off the Wall at Callahan's", by > > > Spider Robinson > > > > (http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Callahans-Spider-Robinson/dp/B000H2MFJK/ref=pd_bbs_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199302028&sr=8-11). > > > I'm sure that Spider would love for it to be in-print and available > > > for his fans, BUT... there just aren't enough of us to justify a full > > > print run at a price which the majority of people would be willing to > > > pay, so if I want a copy, I need to go to the Used Book market. > > > Fortunately, it's not too unreasonable, BUT... no new copies > > > available, and are highly unlikely to ever be again, because Spider > > > just isn't an A-List author, and so is rather limited in his reprint > > > possibilities. > > > > > > Likewise, > > > 1) ASL just isn't ever going to have the volume to justify REALLY big > > > print runs on new items. We can all dream about a day when ASL is as > > > popular as Monopoly (or even something like Settlers of Cataan), but I > > > don't expect to see it within my lifetime. > > > > > > 2) As long as copies ARE available on the used market for $100 (let's > > > say) for a particular module, then it doesn't make good business sense > > > to do a run of 500 copies if a) only 100 of them will sell any time > > > soon (unsold stock is effectively money wasted, as far as a business > > > is concerned), and b) the sale price to simply recoup expenses needs > > > to be in the range of $150 (again, let's say. George is the one with > > > the publishing experience, not me, but I've seen enough of these > > > discussions to back-of-the-envelope them). While I know there ARE > > > people out there who will buy anything if it says ASL, even if they > > > already had a copy, I'm certainly not one of them, and I don't know > > > too many who are. Certainly not enough to justify printing 500-1000 > > > copies... not from a BUSINESS standpoint. > > > > > > Anyone who tries to run a business that way is living out the old joke > > > about many hobbies: > > > > > > Q: How do you make a little stack of money in ? > > > > > > A: Start with a BIG stack of money. > > > > > > Put a couple $100,000 of your own money on the table, and I bet they > > > will start doing things your way. > > > > > > I also bet you'll end up with pennies on your dollar... dimes at best. > > > I can't throw away that kind of money, and I'll be that Curt isn't > > > going to be doing it either. > > > > > > Before That Company That Shall Not Be Named (OK, Critical Hit) is > > > brought up as an example, they seem to be doing a large volume of > > > their business on the basis of Cash Up Front. I've stopped > > > pre-ordering anything from them, simply because they take my money > > > RIGHT THEN for a product which may not have even been completely laid > > > out, much less printed and ready to deliver, and then don't deliver it > > > for months to (in one case) over a year. Thus, I've been turned into > > > an Investor in the company, but my only returns are the product at the > > > end of the delivery. Not a huge ROI. If I decide I want any more CH > > > stuff (quite likely, although I haven't been buying much of ANY kind > > > of gaming materials the past year), I'll buy only what is already > > > released, from a reputable broker like Alex Key. I'll often still save > > > money over the MSRP, but I'll get delivery within days or weeks, not > > > months or a year. > > > > > > MMP has decided to take the approach which allows them to sell to Real > > > Game Stores more effectively, that of only billing/expecting payment > > > when something actually ships. No game store is going to pony up $300 > > > for 10 copies of a product they MIGHT be able to sell 6 months or more > > > from now; I'm sure they all pay 30 days net on the delivery invoice, > > > like most any other retailer. > > > > > > OK, end ad-hominem attack, such as it is. Seriously, though, one can't > > > compare the two, because they take seriously different marketing > > > approaches. Each is correct, for a given "Market". > > > > > > -- > > > Brian Pickering > > > bpickeri at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > >-- >Brian Pickering >bpickeri at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >Aslml mailing list >Aslml at lists.aslml.net >http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:00:05 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:00:05 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20080102212208.0217fc10@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: Thanks Seth, I know I am not the only one that sees the inconsistancies. I'm not going to re-hash but its good to know that I am the the only nut out here. Seth be careful or you'll get referred to the marvel comics page. If you question MMP then that means you are not mature enough to understand economics, business models and highly detailed games like ASL. I do find it interesting though about what you said about the other game lines. It just seems to me that they are not as committed to ASL as everyone would have us believe. I could be wrong however. It surely wouldn't be the first time. Also - I know that Chas wants us all to realize that the rulebook is available. But once again for how long and then what. I have scanned everything I have into pdf form and am willing to trade with whoever would like to. I'll tell you what, the Tactiques scenarios are pretty good we've played some here in fort worth and the ones we've tried are good. Death from the Sky was the last one we did. I never knew they were out there until recently however I do understand saome of them are or were reprinted in journals and annuals. Good Luck. Arlen Vanek Fort Worth, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth W Fancher" To: "Brian Pickering" ; "Arlen Vanek" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > Not intending to pour gasoline on the fire here, but... > > The Historical Studies (which are most similar to the HASLs) are both > priced at less than $50 at full MSRP. VotG has an estimated retail price > of $65. So I highly doubt that the cost of producing new RB modules would > approach anything close to $135. > > All discussion about the boards aside, to me the far bigger issue is the > non-availability of the rules (and hence I agree with Arlen that producing > FKaC (without Chapter F) as opposed to re-printing WoA was a mistake. > With VASL (where you don't need to own the boards or counters) or an ASL > buddy who has the components, what is really needed is additional copies > of the required rules chapters. Of course, several people on the > ASLML/ASL Forums/Consim could care less about legal niceties such as > copyright law and simply photocopy the rules in these cases. Hard for me > to feel bad for MMP though, if they aren't actually selling the product > themselves. > > As for the cash outlay required to initiate a print run...I agree, that > can be a substantial amount of money. Of course, MMP is also laying out > money for new CCACW, DAK, IGS, The Gamers and a number of other game line > products. So it would appear that initial cash outlay is not as much an > obstacle for them as simply getting product ready to go to press (proofing > rules pages and counters and maps and such) is. > > > > > > > At 03:34 PM 1/2/2008, Brian Pickering wrote: >>The numbers I gave tell you why: >> >>Let's say that MMP wants to sell RB at $150 a crack (assume 10% >>profit, which AFAIK might be ludicrously over-indulgent, so they need >>to pay $135, whether in printing, packaging, electricity to run the >>lights/website, or any other overhead, to get those boxes out the >>door, and would theoretically make $15 apiece). To get that, maybe >>they need to order 500 copies, maybe 1000. Not sure, but I doubt they >>can just order 50-100 copies without the price rising to $250, $300, >>or more. >> >>Simply producing those 500 copies will cost $67,500 out of MMP's pockets. >> >>Thus, in order to simply RECOUP THEIR INVESTMENT (i.e., stay in >>business, instead of funding our additions out of their pockets), MMP >>needs to sell 450 copies. At that point MMP won't have made any money, >>but at least they won't have LOST any money. >> >>I don't think that even the most optimistic AND REALISTIC ASL >>proponent would claim there is a market for 450+ independent copies of >>RB. First of all, (and I know this verges on heresy), not every ASL >>fan wants to do CGs, or enjoys urban slugfests, or can afford >>$150/copy for something that may not get the level of replay which BV, >>FKAK, or any of the other Core modules would provide. I guess they >>COULD put it up for pre-order, but that would then they wouldn't be >>able to go with the "Add to another product" choice, because people >>would start complaining about THAT option. >> >>I don't think that MMP will ever print RB on its own again. Perhaps >>someday as an adjunct to another product, but MMP isn't in business to >>lose money. They're in business to see that this game stays alive, >>yes, but read those first three words again: >> >>THEY'RE IN BUSINESS >> >>If they don't follow simple marketplace economics, they won't stay in >>business, and as George pointed out, no-one else even was willing to >>outbid MMP for the license. >> >>That means that likely either no-one else has the money to outbid MMP >>(and hence, will be even LESS willing to spend that money foolishly), >>or that no-one else thinks that ASL has the potential market to >>justify the expenditure (as the Hasborg did, in deciding not to market >>ASL on its own). >> >>Neither of those options (nor any other I've managed to think of over >>the years) is any better for ASL. >> >>I say, GO MMP!!!!!!!!!! Great job with limited resources! >> >>If you want to play a game with new releases every quarter, you'll >>need to go for something suitably mass-market to support the expenses >>of those releases. Maybe http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/ >> >>I know, it doesn't have the depth of the history or detail to go with >>it. Perhaps it'll be enjoyable, though.* >> >>Brian Pickering >> >>* Excuse me, anyone have a prybar? Gotta get this tongue outa my >>cheek, and it's lodged in there pretty-well.... >> >>On Jan 2, 2008 12:09 PM, Arlen Vanek wrote: >> > isnt that what the pre-order process was meant to solve? >> > since red barricades brings well over $150 as is I would buy 10 copies >> > myself. not to mention the prices i've seen for Bridge to Far. If >> > consumers >> > or independant dealers are getting $250 per copy or more why wouldn't >> > MMP? >> > They could at least give it a shot is all i am saying. >> > I'd put my next paycheck up to say that there are overseas printers >> > that >> > could get this done if the cost is that out of control. >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Brian Pickering" >> > To: "Arlen Vanek" >> > Cc: "George Bates" ; ; >> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 1:50 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) >> > >> > >> > > Regarding "too much to handle" and "Why campaigns": >> > > On Jan 2, 2008 10:33 AM, Arlen Vanek wrote: >> > >> I think its presumptuous to assume that admittingly part-timers can >> > >> do a >> > >> better job than a company that could devote a full time professional >> > >> staff. >> > >> (every email I have sent to MMP has gone unanswered - and i never >> brought >> > >> up >> > >> any of these issues with them I am just talking about general >> > >> questions >> > >> about orders or the game itself) although when I have spoken to them >> > >> on >> > >> the >> > >> phone they are prompt and courteous. My beef is not with them >> > >> personally >> > >> or >> > >> their product. I made that clear. I clearly have said that MMP >> > >> deserves >> > >> all >> > >> the credit in the world for taking this on. All I am saying is that >> > >> if >> > >> it's >> > >> too much for tham to handle then maybe they should pass it on to >> > >> such a >> > >> company. To say never or impossible is short-sighted. >> > >> Why should the campaigns be one offs anyway. Is there any logic to >> > >> this >> > >> at >> > >> all. I find it silly and self-defeating when there is an obvious >> > >> market >> > >> for >> > >> such otherwise we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And for >> > >> all >> > >> their efforts, to do what you said about FKaC, once again what good >> > >> did >> > >> it >> > >> do if niether are available for purchase and who knows when they >> will be. >> > >> They obvioulsy cannot not keep up with demand which is my only >> > >> point. My >> > >> concern is that by taking this road the hobby will die, unless Curt >> > >> decides >> > >> to really make a go of it and truly invest in this endeavor. I think >> > >> it >> > >> would be possible to find people who would devote full time to this >> > >> if >> > >> given >> > >> the opportunity. >> > >> >> > >> Arlen Vanek >> > >> >> > >> Fort Worth, TX >> > >> >> > > >> > > Glad to finally see some new-years' traffic on the ASLML, even if it >> > > is an ancient flamewar topic! >:-) >> > > >> > > I think that George has really answered these both, when he made >> > > reference to the economics of small print runs. >> > > >> > > Why isn't anyone else interested in taking on the company and making >> > > a >> > > major, full-time career out of it? Because it isn't economical to >> > > try; >> > > >> > > Why are the CGs one-time items, as opposed to being core modules that >> > > HAVE to get reprinted eventually? Because it is even less economical >> > > to reprint the smaller numbers for people new to the hobby. >> > > >> > > It's a lot like books; take a look at "Off the Wall at Callahan's", >> > > by >> > > Spider Robinson >> > > >> (http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Callahans-Spider-Robinson/dp/B000H2MFJK/ref=pd_bbs_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199302028&sr=8-11). >> > > I'm sure that Spider would love for it to be in-print and available >> > > for his fans, BUT... there just aren't enough of us to justify a full >> > > print run at a price which the majority of people would be willing to >> > > pay, so if I want a copy, I need to go to the Used Book market. >> > > Fortunately, it's not too unreasonable, BUT... no new copies >> > > available, and are highly unlikely to ever be again, because Spider >> > > just isn't an A-List author, and so is rather limited in his reprint >> > > possibilities. >> > > >> > > Likewise, >> > > 1) ASL just isn't ever going to have the volume to justify REALLY big >> > > print runs on new items. We can all dream about a day when ASL is as >> > > popular as Monopoly (or even something like Settlers of Cataan), but >> > > I >> > > don't expect to see it within my lifetime. >> > > >> > > 2) As long as copies ARE available on the used market for $100 (let's >> > > say) for a particular module, then it doesn't make good business >> > > sense >> > > to do a run of 500 copies if a) only 100 of them will sell any time >> > > soon (unsold stock is effectively money wasted, as far as a business >> > > is concerned), and b) the sale price to simply recoup expenses needs >> > > to be in the range of $150 (again, let's say. George is the one with >> > > the publishing experience, not me, but I've seen enough of these >> > > discussions to back-of-the-envelope them). While I know there ARE >> > > people out there who will buy anything if it says ASL, even if they >> > > already had a copy, I'm certainly not one of them, and I don't know >> > > too many who are. Certainly not enough to justify printing 500-1000 >> > > copies... not from a BUSINESS standpoint. >> > > >> > > Anyone who tries to run a business that way is living out the old >> > > joke >> > > about many hobbies: >> > > >> > > Q: How do you make a little stack of money in ? >> > > >> > > A: Start with a BIG stack of money. >> > > >> > > Put a couple $100,000 of your own money on the table, and I bet they >> > > will start doing things your way. >> > > >> > > I also bet you'll end up with pennies on your dollar... dimes at >> > > best. >> > > I can't throw away that kind of money, and I'll be that Curt isn't >> > > going to be doing it either. >> > > >> > > Before That Company That Shall Not Be Named (OK, Critical Hit) is >> > > brought up as an example, they seem to be doing a large volume of >> > > their business on the basis of Cash Up Front. I've stopped >> > > pre-ordering anything from them, simply because they take my money >> > > RIGHT THEN for a product which may not have even been completely laid >> > > out, much less printed and ready to deliver, and then don't deliver >> > > it >> > > for months to (in one case) over a year. Thus, I've been turned into >> > > an Investor in the company, but my only returns are the product at >> > > the >> > > end of the delivery. Not a huge ROI. If I decide I want any more CH >> > > stuff (quite likely, although I haven't been buying much of ANY kind >> > > of gaming materials the past year), I'll buy only what is already >> > > released, from a reputable broker like Alex Key. I'll often still >> > > save >> > > money over the MSRP, but I'll get delivery within days or weeks, not >> > > months or a year. >> > > >> > > MMP has decided to take the approach which allows them to sell to >> > > Real >> > > Game Stores more effectively, that of only billing/expecting payment >> > > when something actually ships. No game store is going to pony up $300 >> > > for 10 copies of a product they MIGHT be able to sell 6 months or >> > > more >> > > from now; I'm sure they all pay 30 days net on the delivery invoice, >> > > like most any other retailer. >> > > >> > > OK, end ad-hominem attack, such as it is. Seriously, though, one >> > > can't >> > > compare the two, because they take seriously different marketing >> > > approaches. Each is correct, for a given "Market". >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Brian Pickering >> > > bpickeri at gmail.com >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> >>-- >>Brian Pickering >>bpickeri at gmail.com >>_______________________________________________ >>Aslml mailing list >>Aslml at lists.aslml.net >>http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >>To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > From swfancher at mindspring.com Thu Jan 3 15:32:20 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:32:20 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20080102212208.0217fc10@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080103182352.0215e1a0@pop.mindspring.com> Hi Chas, Happy New Year! Hope all is well with you. I was referring to the non-ASLRB chapters - F,G, H for all nationalities other than Germany, Russia, the US France and the minors, O,Q,R,S,T.... With VASL, it is possible for someone to get access to the components to play these games...but without the rules, and to a lesser extent without the applicable vehicle and ordnance notes, these scenarios are not accessible. From a practical extent, a new player cannot play scenarios involving the UK, Italy, Japanese, DTO, PTO regardless of VASL's capabilities. If they prefer FTF, you have to also exclude scenarios that include boards that were included with any of the OOP modules. This probably cuts the number of playable scenarios by at least 40%. Factor in that new scenario packs from TPP will more often than not include scenarios that include: UK, Japanese, recently Italian OOB - we are creating a tremendous amount of product that is of little use without these core components and rules sections being available. We have lots of AoO and minor scenarios - for me personally those are yawners (YMMV). And while I definitely think that the SKs are great ideas, and am looking forward to the release of VotG, I do personally think that for the longer term MMP would be better off focusing on getting core modules back in print and available. Be well. Seth At 09:40 PM 1/2/2008, Chas Argent wrote: >Seth- > >Not sure where you're seeing this but the rules are available from MMP: > >http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodaslrb.php > >There was an issue where there were no binders for awhile but you could >still buy the rules wthout them. > >Adios, >Chas > >On Jan 2, 2008 9:32 PM, Seth W Fancher ><swfancher at mindspring.com> wrote: > >All discussion about the boards aside, to me the far bigger issue is the >non-availability of the rules (and hence I agree with Arlen that producing >FKaC (without Chapter F) as opposed to re-printing WoA was a mistake. With >VASL (where you don't need to own the boards or counters) or an ASL buddy >who has the components, what is really needed is additional copies of the >required rules chapters. Of course, several people on the ASLML/ASL >Forums/Consim could care less about legal niceties such as copyright law >and simply photocopy the rules in these cases. Hard for me to feel bad for >MMP though, if they aren't actually selling the product themselves. > > > >-- >Chas Argent >Baltimore, MD, USA >chas.argent at gmail.com From swfancher at mindspring.com Thu Jan 3 15:36:17 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:36:17 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: <002101c84dbc$4160ea40$6602a8c0@superboy> References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20080102212208.0217fc10@pop.mindspring.com> <002101c84dbc$4160ea40$6602a8c0@superboy> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080103183337.02159ac0@pop.mindspring.com> Right, Chap F...G for the Japanese and PTO!!!! Etc. My personal opinion is that it would be better to re-publish these core modules, or get the rules sections and vehicle/ordnance notes re-printed and sold separately so now all these scenarios with UK, Italy, Japanese OBs are playable at least via VASL. Be well. Seth At 10:53 PM 1/2/2008, Brian Pickering wrote: >I think that Seth is referring to rules such as Chapter F, which wasn't in >FKaC. > >At that point, I think we're getting into the area of the problem that not >all the rules existed in publishable form when MMP took over. > >My numbers were chosen based on two things: 1) smaller print runs than the >original printings, since I'm assuming that most previous purchasers would >not purchase another copy, and 2) George's comments that printing doesn't >scale linearly; if you do a print run 1/2 as big, it won't cost you 1/2 as >much. Maybe my prices were on the high side, but I think the basic >percentages work out. > >WRT the other products MMP is putting out, remember, my main point is that >I doubt there is demand for large (500-1000-copy) print runs of the >previously-published CGs. Unless MMP can make back its initial investment >in short order (let's say, a year or less, with much less being much >better of course), then they've got money tied up in stock which CAN'T be >used to publish more product. Many businesses have failed that way; >they've got stock, but if they can't move it, then they can't produce the >next product (or buy next month's stock for sale, etc.) Eventually, >they'll fail to make payroll, or accounts due, and that's that for the >company... again, they've got plenty of product, but it doesn't do any >good in the stockroom. > >The smaller your market is, the more important liquidity is, and the more >important that not overproducing is. > >Maybe you're right, and MMP >should< put RB back on the Pre-order list. >They can set the price according to the size of the print run; if printing >500 copies will require the price to be $75, then so be it. If it can >reasonably be published for $50, great! Will it MEET that pre-order >number? I guess the biggest worry I would have (if I were them, and >considering this) would be if it were to languish in the P# queue for a >couple of years; over the intervening time, think of what would happen >with delivery costs, raw material costs, labor, etc. What if it takes them >two years to meet the P#, but by then the printing costs are now close to >$75. Is it still worth it to them to even print it, even though they >eventually DID meet the P# (and therefore have committed to publish it)? > >Dunno. Anyone else out here with printing and/or business experience to >come out and say that MMP could do it, and back it up with better numbers >than I've provided? Sounds like George has been involved in publishing. >I've looked seriously at the economics of getting into business in hobby >retail (not publishing, but some of the same accounting applies as I've >tried to note above), and decided it was too borderline for the amount of >investment I would be able to make at the present time. > >I'd say, I would be GLAD to hear more-optimistic numbers, from someone who >can back them up with experience. I've never heard them, though. > >Thanks, > >Brian Pickering > > >---------- >From: Chas Argent [mailto:chas.argent at gmail.com] >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:41 PM >To: Seth W Fancher >Cc: Brian Pickering; Arlen Vanek; aslml-aslml.net at lists.aslml.net >Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > >Seth- > >Not sure where you're seeing this but the rules are available from MMP: > >http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/prodaslrb.php > >There was an issue where there were no binders for awhile but you could >still buy the rules wthout them. > >Adios, >Chas > >On Jan 2, 2008 9:32 PM, Seth W Fancher ><swfancher at mindspring.com> wrote: > >All discussion about the boards aside, to me the far bigger issue is the >non-availability of the rules (and hence I agree with Arlen that producing >FKaC (without Chapter F) as opposed to re-printing WoA was a mistake. With >VASL (where you don't need to own the boards or counters) or an ASL buddy >who has the components, what is really needed is additional copies of the >required rules chapters. Of course, several people on the ASLML/ASL >Forums/Consim could care less about legal niceties such as copyright law >and simply photocopy the rules in these cases. Hard for me to feel bad for >MMP though, if they aren't actually selling the product themselves. > > > >-- >Chas Argent >Baltimore, MD, USA >chas.argent at gmail.com From swfancher at mindspring.com Thu Jan 3 15:41:08 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:41:08 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20080102212208.0217fc10@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080103183626.02169d40@pop.mindspring.com> Hi Arlen, No worries...I am a Wolf-Boy from way back when Tate Rogers was still a garage. End of the day, I think we all fundamentally want the same thing (ASL to be successful and to grow). We just differ on how we think best to get there, and I think we enjoy speculating on how best to do that since MMP tends to remain pretty silent on these things. FWIW, I seem to remember that Curt paid more than 7-figures for the right to publish ASL stuff. SO it is not as if he does not personally have skin in the game. Now, I know if I told my wife that I wanted to spend a million bucks to buy ASL stuff I would be sleeping on the couch for quite a while. :-) Give the guy some credit for that..... Be well. Seth At 11:00 PM 1/2/2008, Arlen Vanek wrote: >Seth be careful or you'll get referred to the marvel comics page. If you >question MMP then that means you are not mature enough to understand >economics, business models and highly detailed games like ASL. From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 16:58:27 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:58:27 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <001d01c84d6a$17287a60$030ba8c0@RustyNail> <885c41aa0801021150l58856b8do424add2f73813b@mail.gmail.com> <885c41aa0801021234w6988568dub9d1458cfd179826@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20080102212208.0217fc10@pop.mindspring.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20080103183626.02169d40@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: i agree - and like i said i'm glad someone like curt is willing to do this. i just disagree that he's the only person on the planet that could get this done. maybe for hasbro its about the highest bidder and rightfully so, but that doesnt always equate the the best qualified. maybe it does in this and then again maybe not. it's unfortunate that when all it takes is someone questioning MMP and then all of a sudden people start making me out to be uneducated or immature. p.s. - i thought tony stark was coming over later - well maybe not he's probably busy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth W Fancher" To: "Arlen Vanek" ; "Brian Pickering" Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > Hi Arlen, > > No worries...I am a Wolf-Boy from way back when Tate Rogers was still a > garage. End of the day, I think we all fundamentally want the same thing > (ASL to be successful and to grow). We just differ on how we think best > to get there, and I think we enjoy speculating on how best to do that > since MMP tends to remain pretty silent on these things. > > FWIW, I seem to remember that Curt paid more than 7-figures for the right > to publish ASL stuff. SO it is not as if he does not personally have skin > in the game. Now, I know if I told my wife that I wanted to spend a > million bucks to buy ASL stuff I would be sleeping on the couch for quite > a while. :-) Give the guy some credit for that..... > > Be well. > Seth > > > > At 11:00 PM 1/2/2008, Arlen Vanek wrote: >>Seth be careful or you'll get referred to the marvel comics page. If you >>question MMP then that means you are not mature enough to understand >>economics, business models and highly detailed games like ASL. > > > From cfago at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 3 19:09:55 2008 From: cfago at ix.netcom.com (Carl D. Fago) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:09:55 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) Message-ID: <2595383.1199416196288.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Seth W Fancher >No worries...I am a Wolf-Boy from way back when Tate Rogers was still a >garage. Uggh! Those were _not_ the days! Besides, the old dudes are those who were on GEnie! My, how we've grown and changed. > End of the day, I think we all fundamentally want the same thing >(ASL to be successful and to grow). We just differ on how we think best to >get there, and I think we enjoy speculating on how best to do that since >MMP tends to remain pretty silent on these things. Right stuff, wrong order. MMP is pretty silent on such things as they've learned that everyone has a different opinion on how they think the business ought to be run. >FWIW, I seem to remember that Curt paid more than 7-figures for the right >to publish ASL stuff. Not true. I believe there was an offer on the table to AH back before AH sold the game line to Hasbro but this type of transaction with Hasbro did not occur. > SO it is not as if he does not personally have skin >in the game. It is true that he fronted money so MMP could operate initially. > Give the guy some credit for that..... Still true regardless of the dollars. We'd all get booted to the couch or worse for anything in the four figures let alone higher! Carl From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 19:42:14 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:42:14 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) References: <2595383.1199416196288.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: lol - which is why i won't get married. if my girlfriend doesnt like it i tell her to get on the couch. trust me guys she hasn't left yet and in fact i just got journal 6 and operation veritable for my birthday. i cant argue with that. I cant remember the movie but i think it was paulie shore who said it. "I keep getting older and they keep staying the same." AV ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl D. Fago" To: "ASLML" Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) > -----Original Message----- >>From: Seth W Fancher > >>No worries...I am a Wolf-Boy from way back when Tate Rogers was still a >>garage. > > Uggh! Those were _not_ the days! Besides, the old dudes are those who > were on GEnie! My, how we've grown and changed. > >> End of the day, I think we all fundamentally want the same thing >>(ASL to be successful and to grow). We just differ on how we think best >>to >>get there, and I think we enjoy speculating on how best to do that since >>MMP tends to remain pretty silent on these things. > > Right stuff, wrong order. MMP is pretty silent on such things as they've > learned that everyone has a different opinion on how they think the > business ought to be run. > >>FWIW, I seem to remember that Curt paid more than 7-figures for the right >>to publish ASL stuff. > > Not true. I believe there was an offer on the table to AH back before AH > sold the game line to Hasbro but this type of transaction with Hasbro did > not occur. > >> SO it is not as if he does not personally have skin >>in the game. > > It is true that he fronted money so MMP could operate initially. > >> Give the guy some credit for that..... > > Still true regardless of the dollars. We'd all get booted to the couch or > worse for anything in the four figures let alone higher! > > Carl > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > From play_asl_838 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 05:57:18 2008 From: play_asl_838 at yahoo.com (kevin meyer) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 05:57:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Aslml] Happy New Year! (smile, dammit!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <240252.20266.qm@web60914.mail.yahoo.com> > I cant remember the movie but i think it was paulie > shore who said it. "I > keep getting older and they keep staying the same." Matthew McConaughey's character said something similar to this in "Dazed and Confused". He was refering to some high school girls while standing out front of a pool hall. The quote from IMDB.com is "That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age." Is that the one? Kevin Meyer ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From afantozzi at tiscali.it Fri Jan 4 08:54:34 2008 From: afantozzi at tiscali.it (Andrea Fantozzi) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 17:54:34 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] Vasl Game Message-ID: <001501c84ef2$7f77d0f0$04e90b3e@andrea> Hi everyone! In the last two years I had no time to dedicate to ASL but now I think I have again some time for playing... Therefore, I'm looking for some VASL games. Any scenario, side, etc. is ok for me. Anyone interested? Andrea Fantozzi from Italy Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1197 - Release Date: 25/12/2007 20.04 From jkcarrington at sympatico.ca Mon Jan 7 17:38:21 2008 From: jkcarrington at sympatico.ca (John Carrington) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:38:21 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Scott Holst's ASL site Message-ID: Does anyone know what has happened to Scott Holst's ASL site? I hadn't checked it for awhile and cannot find anything on it now. Cheers, John From garciagd at velocity.net Mon Jan 7 17:47:51 2008 From: garciagd at velocity.net (Roger Whelan) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:47:51 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Scott Holst's ASL site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: He posted on the War Forums he was closing it down..... Peace Roger -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net]On Behalf Of John Carrington Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:38 PM To: aslml at lists.aslml.net Subject: [Aslml] Scott Holst's ASL site Does anyone know what has happened to Scott Holst's ASL site? I hadn't checked it for awhile and cannot find anything on it now. Cheers, John _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From daniel.earhart at us.army.mil Wed Jan 9 12:12:43 2008 From: daniel.earhart at us.army.mil (Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:12:43 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Some questions for the experts Message-ID: Greetings, 1. Does destruction of a SW/Gun in the Prep Fire Phase prohibit movement in the MPh? 2. Is a gun crew dismounting from a truck attacked by the residual fire in the dismounting hex? 3. If a truck uses all MF to enter woods, can it also stop that same turn? 4. If a jeep immobilizes and the passenger is broken, does the jeep become a wreck forcing the broken unit to dismount? Thanks for all the help. Dan E. From klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se Wed Jan 9 12:36:48 2008 From: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Klas=20Malmstr=F6m?=) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 21:36:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Aslml] Some questions for the experts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <700234.89080.qm@web27907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, --- "Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC" skrev: > > 1. Does destruction of a SW/Gun in the Prep Fire Phase prohibit movement in > the MPh? Yes. Malfunctiong/disabling a SW counts as using it (i.e. Firing it) - see A9.73. > 2. Is a gun crew dismounting from a truck attacked by the residual fire in > the dismounting hex? Yes. > 3. If a truck uses all MF to enter woods, can it also stop that same turn? Yes (it can even start first) - see rule D2.7. > 4. If a jeep immobilizes and the passenger is broken, does the jeep become a > wreck forcing the broken unit to dismount? No, they have to unload before it becomes a wreck/is removes. See rule D8.1 (last sentence. Regards, Klas Malmstrom ------------------------------------------------------- Klas Malmstrom Linkoping, Sweden Email: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se ------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Ta semester! - s?k efter resor hos Yahoo! Shopping. J?mf?r pris p? flygbiljetter och hotellrum h?r: http://shopping.yahoo.se/c-169901-resor-biljetter.html?partnerId=96914052 From stance.nixon at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 14:14:22 2008 From: stance.nixon at gmail.com (Stance Nixon) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:14:22 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] Ski movement Message-ID: Hi all: Does a Gully count as a "crest line" to gain the extra movement when using skis? Stance From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 18:39:45 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 20:39:45 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Ski movement References: Message-ID: ok - i am no expert on this, however, from looking at the rules I don't think a gully automatically creates a crest line since the entire hex is considered a gully hex. I may be wrong though. Its a good question. However, crest status could be claimed for being in a gully. A6.3 B10.11 B19.1 B19.5 B20.91 E4.3 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stance Nixon" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 4:14 PM Subject: [Aslml] Ski movement > Hi all: > Does a Gully count as a "crest line" to gain the extra movement when using > skis? > > Stance > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > From geb3 at inter.net Sun Jan 13 06:59:36 2008 From: geb3 at inter.net (George Bates) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:59:36 +0900 Subject: [Aslml] DFF versus empty hex Message-ID: <000601c855f4$f0d2b0e0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> I've looked through my personal archive of "Perry Sez" and the one on Sam Belcher's site and I cannot locate an item I seem to recall that specifically prohibits units from using DFF (or SFF) versus hexes/locations other than the one containing the moving unit, as when an infantry unit is attempting to put down RFP before they are locked in VBM freeze. Can anyone provide this one or point me to a spot in the rules that addresses the problem? TIA. Cheers! - G From krynndm at speakeasy.net Sun Jan 13 07:19:59 2008 From: krynndm at speakeasy.net (Tom Mueller) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:19:59 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] DFF versus empty hex In-Reply-To: <000601c855f4$f0d2b0e0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> References: <000601c855f4$f0d2b0e0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Message-ID: <000001c855f7$c3345910$adc55d42@skyfire> Hi George, I'd look to A8.1, second sentence. I believe there may be Q&A explaining how in certain instances DFF may include fire versus empty hexes, but these would address the Spray Fire and Canister type situations, where more than just the moving target's hex/location was affected. Tom Mueller Opteron - oh yeah! > > I've looked through my personal archive of "Perry Sez" and the one on Sam > Belcher's site and I cannot locate an item I seem to recall that > specifically prohibits units from using DFF (or SFF) versus > hexes/locations > other than the one containing the moving unit, as when an infantry unit is > attempting to put down RFP before they are locked in VBM freeze. Can > anyone > provide this one or point me to a spot in the rules that addresses the > problem? > > TIA. Cheers! From shmcbee at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 13 07:30:13 2008 From: shmcbee at bellsouth.net (Steve McBee) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:30:13 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] DFF versus empty hex In-Reply-To: <000601c855f4$f0d2b0e0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> References: <000601c855f4$f0d2b0e0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Message-ID: <000101c855f9$3329e360$6101a8c0@Steve> There is. These are From Scott R's comprehensive Q&A version 22 of March 05 (he stopped doing it after that one). A7.34 & A9.52 May Spraying Fire be used versus two adjacent "empty" hexes/Locations during the enemy MPh (e.g., in order to place Residual FP therein)? A. No ? at least one of those hexes/?Locations must contain a moving enemy unit. [Gen26.5; An91; An95w; An96; Mw] A8.2 Would firing at an empty hex in order to acquire it leave Residual FP? A. No; you cannot fire at an empty hex to gain acquisition during the MPh. [Compil5] C6.2 If using Area Target Type at an empty hex, would Case K (concealed target) apply? A. Yes, unless firing SMOKE. [Compil5] Compil5: Compilations of ASL questions received at asl_qa at anodyne.com and also re-printed in View From the Trenches ("Compil" abbreviation), dated 5) 26 November 1996 (VFTT11) Hope that helps, Steve -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] On Behalf Of George Bates Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:00 AM To: aslml-aslml.net at lists.aslml.net Subject: [Aslml] DFF versus empty hex I've looked through my personal archive of "Perry Sez" and the one on Sam Belcher's site and I cannot locate an item I seem to recall that specifically prohibits units from using DFF (or SFF) versus hexes/locations other than the one containing the moving unit, as when an infantry unit is attempting to put down RFP before they are locked in VBM freeze. Can anyone provide this one or point me to a spot in the rules that addresses the problem? TIA. Cheers! - G _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From geb3 at inter.net Sun Jan 13 07:28:48 2008 From: geb3 at inter.net (George Bates) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:28:48 +0900 Subject: [Aslml] RE2: DFF versus empty hex In-Reply-To: <000001c855f7$c3345910$adc55d42@skyfire> Message-ID: <000701c855f9$069f9b00$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Yeah, Tom, I'd say "can only be used vs a moving unit(s)" is pretty explicit. Nevermind! - G -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mueller [mailto:krynndm at speakeasy.net] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 12:20 AM To: 'George Bates'; aslml-aslml.net at lists.aslml.net Subject: RE:DFF versus empty hex Hi George, I'd look to A8.1, second sentence. I believe there may be Q&A explaining how in certain instances DFF may include fire versus empty hexes, but these would address the Spray Fire and Canister type situations, where more than just the moving target's hex/location was affected. Tom Mueller Opteron - oh yeah! > > I've looked through my personal archive of "Perry Sez" and the one on > Sam Belcher's site and I cannot locate an item I seem to recall that > specifically prohibits units from using DFF (or SFF) versus > hexes/locations other than the one containing the moving unit, as when > an infantry unit is attempting to put down RFP before they are locked > in VBM freeze. Can anyone > provide this one or point me to a spot in the rules that addresses the > problem? > > TIA. Cheers! From swfancher at mindspring.com Sun Jan 13 07:30:19 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:30:19 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] DFF versus empty hex In-Reply-To: <000601c855f4$f0d2b0e0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> References: <000601c855f4$f0d2b0e0$030ba8c0@RustyNail> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080113102351.0217f470@pop.mindspring.com> Hi George, I think Tom has it correct - that you can use spraying fire or other types of fire that affect more than one hex/location as long as at least one of the locations contains an eligible target. D8.24 mentions this. But otherwise the Location must contain a target for D1F. You can also D1F with weapons that could not affect the target (e.g. IFT attacks vs a moving AFV) for the purpose of leaving resid. Is this what you were looking for? I believe this is clarified by Q&A. Not sure where exactly, but I can look if you are unable to find it. Be well. Seth At 09:59 AM 1/13/2008, George Bates wrote: >I've looked through my personal archive of "Perry Sez" and the one on Sam >Belcher's site and I cannot locate an item I seem to recall that >specifically prohibits units from using DFF (or SFF) versus hexes/locations >other than the one containing the moving unit, as when an infantry unit is >attempting to put down RFP before they are locked in VBM freeze. Can anyone >provide this one or point me to a spot in the rules that addresses the >problem? > >TIA. Cheers! > > - G > > >_______________________________________________ >Aslml mailing list >Aslml at lists.aslml.net >http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From Allexenberg_Mike at emc.com Tue Jan 15 14:15:44 2008 From: Allexenberg_Mike at emc.com (Allexenberg_Mike at emc.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:15:44 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] NorEaster XII Scenario List Message-ID: Nor'Easter XII Scenario List Main Tournament Fri Afternoon: AP18 Village of the Damned RPT9 Shelling the Sivash DB52 Jungle Rats SP145 The Reluctant Tiger FrF9 The Abbeville Bridgehead Fri Night: DB59 Grind Them to Dust *43 Into the Fray CH37 Forgotten Years FrF14 Patton Breaks Loose SP151 Bulanov Rebuked Sat Morning: G7 Bring up the Guns BC8 From Desert to Jungle *A8(deluxe) Gruppo Mobile (Italian balance) HP2 Lousy Crossroads SP147 The Zebra Mission Sat Afternoon: DB60 Acorns in the Fire CH32 The Kibbutz (Israeli balance - E2) CH151 Race for Freedom *PP1 Cut the Road to Marseille RBF28 Breakthrough Sat Night: *80 Play Ball *OB12 Bridgehead on the Berezina RPT3 Varosmajor Grange TT6 Fruit and Nuts SP144 One More Day of Freedom Sunday: DB49 Wetlet (see special balance below) *D4 First to Strike AP19 Winter of Their Discontent CH49 High Danger SP138 Lacking Coordination DB49 Wetlet Special Balance - delete one 238 and four concealment counters from the Japanese OOB. Saturday ASL Mini-Tournament Round 1: DB58 Vossenack Church *J46 Strongpoint 11 FrF16 Last Orders (German balance) Round 2: FrF11 Rostov Redemption TAC72 Combat for a Tower CH41 Test of Nerves Round 3: SP14 The Green House TAC51 Strength Through Unity *T3 Ranger Stronghold (American balance) * - Asterisked scenarios subject to replacement with Valor of the Guards scenarios if VotG ships prior to NorEaster XII. From daniel.earhart at us.army.mil Thu Jan 17 06:13:05 2008 From: daniel.earhart at us.army.mil (Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:13:05 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions Message-ID: Greetings, Can someone help me with the following questions? Thanks. 1. If an AFV is holding an enemy squad in melee, can the AFV fire out of the hex in it's PFPh? At the enemy units in it's own hex? 2. If a truck is attacked by an AT mine and it is eliminated, what is the status of the passengers? 3. Can an ATR whose squad is in melee with an enemy AFV be fired at the AFV when it starts in it's MPh? 4. Can a spotter move in it's MPh and spot in the AFPh? 5. What happens to a truck passenger that breaks? Dan Earhart From klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se Thu Jan 17 12:15:18 2008 From: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Klas=20Malmstr=F6m?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:15:18 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <813939.28590.qm@web27911.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, --- "Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC" skrev: > > Greetings, > > Can someone help me with the following questions? Thanks. > > 1. If an AFV is holding an enemy squad in melee, can the AFV fire out of the > hex in it's PFPh? At the enemy units in it's own hex? The vehicle is still restricted by A7.212 TARGET SELECTION LIMITS - so No it cannot fire out of the Location, but yes it can fire at the units in the Location. > > 2. If a truck is attacked by an AT mine and it is eliminated, what is the > status of the passengers? The passengers rolls for Survival (D6.9). It the truck is eliminated and turned into a burning wreck (Final DR <= 6 the Passengers are eliminated). PRC on an AFV that becomes Immobilized by an A-T Mine attack are attacked Collaterally on the 16FP column. See rule B28.52. > > 3. Can an ATR whose squad is in melee with an enemy AFV be fired at the AFV > when it starts in it's MPh? I believe so yes. I think the Melee ends as soon as the AFV expends its Start MP. > > 4. Can a spotter move in it's MPh and spot in the AFPh? I believe a Spotter can only be designated at the start of the Prep Fire or Defensive Fire Phase (and onlt under certain circumstances). If such an designated Spotter moved away from its adjacent Mortars and back again (e.g. move to try an pick up a SW) so that it is again adjacent at the start of the AFPh, I guess (but I'm far from sure) it could Spot for the Mortars. > > 5. What happens to a truck passenger that breaks? Other than breaking and becoming DM not much. See rule D6.1: "Passengers may remain in their vehicle even while broken or may rout beneath a Stopped vehicle per 5.311, unless the inherent crew (if any) is eliminated, breaks, or Abandons the vehicle, in which case any broken Passengers must rout beneath the vehicle. Otherwise, a broken Passenger may remain in its vehicle free from rout requirements even if enemy units are ADJACENT, in the same hex, or the vehicle is moving toward an enemy unit (even to OVR)." Regards, Klas Malmstrom ------------------------------------------------------- Klas Malmstrom Linkoping, Sweden Email: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se ------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________ S?k efter k?rleken! Hitta din tvillingsj?l p? Yahoo! Dejting: http://se.meetic.yahoo.net/index.php?mtcmk=148757 From david at starfire.utias.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 17 13:10:02 2008 From: david at starfire.utias.utoronto.ca (David Elder) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:10:02 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions In-Reply-To: <813939.28590.qm@web27911.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <813939.28590.qm@web27911.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <478FC42A.2020004@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca> Hi, Just to add an item to Klas' answers. >> 3. Can an ATR whose squad is in melee with an enemy AFV be fired at the AFV >> when it starts in it's MPh? >> > > I believe so yes. I think the Melee ends as soon as the AFV expends its Start > MP. > I'd say no. A "Non-Stopped" AFV does not hold infantry in Melee. "Non-stopped" is defined as not having expended a stop MP since its last start MP. So a vehicle starting up to leave a location no longer holds the enemy squad in melee. However, looking at D7.2 Reaction Fire which covers defenders firing in the MPh at vehicles in their hex - there are two types of reaction fire CC Reaction Fire and Non-CC reaction fire. Non-CC reaction fire can only be used vs an OVR. In the example above I would say the ATR would not be allowed to fire in the same hex - a CCT attack must be conducted instead unless the AFV is executing an OVR. (Note that I don't have any errata in my V2 rulebook just in case the wording was changed.) "D7.2 Reaction Fire is conducted during the MPh by the DEFENDER, who uses it to attack a vehicle in that DEFENDER's (or, if using Street Fighting [7.211 ], in an allowed ADJACENT) Location. There are two types of Reaction Fire: /CC Reaction Fire/ (7.21 ), which is resolved on the CCT; and /Non-CC Reaction Fire/ (7.22 ), which is resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs an OVR." ... >> 4. Can a spotter move in it's MPh and spot in the AFPh? >> > > I believe a Spotter can only be designated at the start of the Prep Fire or > Defensive Fire Phase (and onlt under certain circumstances). If such an > designated Spotter moved away from its adjacent Mortars and back again (e.g. > move to try an pick up a SW) so that it is again adjacent at the start of the > AFPh, I guess (but I'm far from sure) it could Spot for the Mortars. > No. C9.3 "Spotting is considered the equivalent of using a SW for the purposes of movement curtailment and inherent FP loss." The rule goes on to say that the appropriate fire counter is placed on the unit when it is designated as a spotter. Cheers, David From oleboe at broadpark.no Thu Jan 17 13:40:17 2008 From: oleboe at broadpark.no (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ole_B=F8e?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:40:17 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions In-Reply-To: <478FC42A.2020004@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca> References: <813939.28590.qm@web27911.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <478FC42A.2020004@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <478FCB41.8060109@broadpark.no> Hi, David Elder wrote: > Hi, > > Just to add an item to Klas' answers. > > >>> 3. Can an ATR whose squad is in melee with an enemy AFV be fired at the AFV >>> when it starts in it's MPh? >>> >>> >> I believe so yes. I think the Melee ends as soon as the AFV expends its Start >> MP. >> >> > I'd say no. A "Non-Stopped" AFV does not hold infantry in Melee. > "Non-stopped" is defined as not having expended a stop MP since its last > start MP. So a vehicle starting up to leave a location no longer holds > the enemy squad in melee. However, looking at D7.2 Reaction Fire which > covers defenders firing in the MPh at vehicles in their hex While D7.2 may certainly lead you to think that Reaction Fire is the only option, there is another option as well: normal DFF due to the Start MP expended. Actually, this is the only option, since Non-CC Reaction Fire is only possible vs a vehicle that has conducted OVR, which is not the case here. So normal DFF is allowed based on the Start MP, making Klas' answer correct. From klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se Thu Jan 17 13:44:54 2008 From: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Klas_Malmstr=F6m?=) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:44:54 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions In-Reply-To: <478FC42A.2020004@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca> References: <813939.28590.qm@web27911.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <478FC42A.2020004@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <478FCC56.6040109@yahoo.se> Hi, David Elder skrev: > Hi, > > Just to add an item to Klas' answers. > >>> 3. Can an ATR whose squad is in melee with an enemy AFV be fired at >>> the AFV >>> when it starts in it's MPh? >>> >> >> I believe so yes. I think the Melee ends as soon as the AFV expends >> its Start >> MP. >> > However, looking at D7.2 Reaction Fire which > covers defenders firing in the MPh at vehicles in their hex - there are > two types of reaction fire CC Reaction Fire and Non-CC reaction fire. > Non-CC reaction fire can only be used vs an OVR. In the example above I > would say the ATR would not be allowed to fire in the same hex - a CCT > attack must be conducted instead unless the AFV is executing an OVR. > (Note that I don't have any errata in my V2 rulebook just in case the > wording was changed.) I'm was thinking it could perhaps just fire the ATR as a regular Defensive First Fire attack. Maybe it can't. >>> 4. Can a spotter move in it's MPh and spot in the AFPh? >>> >> >> I believe a Spotter can only be designated at the start of the Prep >> Fire or >> Defensive Fire Phase (and onlt under certain circumstances). If such an >> designated Spotter moved away from its adjacent Mortars and back again >> (e.g. >> move to try an pick up a SW) so that it is again adjacent at the start >> of the >> AFPh, I guess (but I'm far from sure) it could Spot for the Mortars. >> > No. C9.3 "Spotting is considered the equivalent of using a SW for the > purposes of movement curtailment and inherent FP loss." The rule goes on > to say that the appropriate fire counter is placed on the unit when it > is designated as a spotter. Is the unit marked with a counter just for being designated as a Spotter ? I'll have to read C9.3 more carefully again. Regards, Klas Malmstrom From jpcole at westnet.com.au Thu Jan 17 14:28:42 2008 From: jpcole at westnet.com.au (Jon Cole) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:28:42 +0900 Subject: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions References: <813939.28590.qm@web27911.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <478FC42A.2020004@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c85958$514b1b90$6401a8c0@401b29ad67014ec> Hi >>> 3. Can an ATR whose squad is in melee with an enemy AFV be fired at the >>> AFV >>> when it starts in it's MPh? >>> >> >> I believe so yes. I think the Melee ends as soon as the AFV expends its >> Start >> MP. >> > I'd say no. A "Non-Stopped" AFV does not hold infantry in Melee. > "Non-stopped" is defined as not having expended a stop MP since its last > start MP. So a vehicle starting up to leave a location no longer holds > the enemy squad in melee. However, looking at D7.2 Reaction Fire which > covers defenders firing in the MPh at vehicles in their hex - there are > two types of reaction fire CC Reaction Fire and Non-CC reaction fire. > Non-CC reaction fire can only be used vs an OVR. In the example above I > would say the ATR would not be allowed to fire in the same hex - a CCT > attack must be conducted instead unless the AFV is executing an OVR. > (Note that I don't have any errata in my V2 rulebook just in case the > wording was changed.) > > "D7.2 Reaction Fire is conducted during the MPh by the DEFENDER, who > uses it to attack a vehicle in that DEFENDER's (or, if using Street > Fighting [7.211 > ], in an allowed > ADJACENT) Location. There are two types of Reaction Fire: /CC Reaction > Fire/ (7.21 ), > which is resolved on the CCT; and /Non-CC Reaction Fire/ (7.22 > ), which is > resolved on a TK Table or the IFT and which can be used only vs an OVR." > ... Non-CC RF occurs only following the resolution of an OVR. LATW can be used prior to an OVR, but this is not non-CC RFR. Likewise, you can fire aLATW against an AFV in your hex that does not declare an OVR when entering, and again, this is not non-CC RF. If an AFV ends its turn in Motion in the Location that contains your squad/ATR, that squad is not held in Melee. It is free to fire the ATR at the inhex target in its upcoming PFPh, and thuis is not Reaction Fire So in the original question, as soon as the AFV spends a Start MP in its MPh, it is Non-Stopped and the squad/ATR is no longer held in Melee. It is free to fire the ATR at that AFV (and it is still bound by target Selection limits) as it is not using Reaction Fire following an OVR, it is making a D1F attacki on an expended MP Cheers Jon From jpcole at westnet.com.au Thu Jan 17 14:29:28 2008 From: jpcole at westnet.com.au (Jon Cole) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:29:28 +0900 Subject: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions References: <813939.28590.qm@web27911.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><478FC42A.2020004@starfire.utias.utoronto.ca> <478FCB41.8060109@broadpark.no> Message-ID: <001301c85958$6c6ebd50$6401a8c0@401b29ad67014ec> Ole jumps in with the answer a few seconds in front of me :-( Cheers Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ole B?e" To: "David Elder" Cc: "aslml-aslml.net" Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [Aslml] Several Rules Questions > Hi, > David Elder wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Just to add an item to Klas' answers. >> >> >>>> 3. Can an ATR whose squad is in melee with an enemy AFV be fired at >>>> the AFV >>>> when it starts in it's MPh? >>>> >>>> >>> I believe so yes. I think the Melee ends as soon as the AFV expends its >>> Start >>> MP. >>> >>> >> I'd say no. A "Non-Stopped" AFV does not hold infantry in Melee. >> "Non-stopped" is defined as not having expended a stop MP since its last >> start MP. So a vehicle starting up to leave a location no longer holds >> the enemy squad in melee. However, looking at D7.2 Reaction Fire which >> covers defenders firing in the MPh at vehicles in their hex > While D7.2 may certainly lead you to think that Reaction Fire is the > only option, there is another option as well: normal DFF due to the > Start MP expended. Actually, this is the only option, since Non-CC > Reaction Fire is only possible vs a vehicle that has conducted OVR, > which is not the case here. > > So normal DFF is allowed based on the Start MP, making Klas' answer > correct. > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > From furgie at yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 00:40:49 2008 From: furgie at yahoo.com (Mark Furnell) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:40:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Aslml] Double One London Tournament Message-ID: <806604.84332.qm@web53504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi guys, just wanted to flag that London's Double One ASL tournament has expanded to be two days this year. If you're in London in June, come along! Accommodation is really cheap (for London!) and you'll be more than welcome. Friendly games on Friday evening, full rules tournament on Saturday / Sunday and we're hoping to organize a Starter Kit mini on Saturday. Friendly games from both rule sets can be had on both days. If you're in London around the second Saturday of any month, the London ASL club (LASL) meets in the center of London (in fact on the very boarder of London's city & West End), it's free to come along and again you'll be more than welcome. More details of both events at http://www.doubleone-online.net Roll low, Mark. Double One - London's Premier ASL Tournament - 21st & 22nd June,2008. Read more about LASL and the London Double One ASL tournament here http://www.doubleone-online.net ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From derek.tocher at btinternet.com Sat Jan 19 08:30:15 2008 From: derek.tocher at btinternet.com (Derek Tocher) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:30:15 +0000 Subject: [Aslml] Fwd: Heroes 2008 Message-ID: <20080119163023.997D648002@diego.dreamhost.com> > >Guys > >The scenario list for Heroes 2008 has just been posted at >www.asltourneys.co.uk. As ever, we >hope we've got a varied and interesting set of scenarios for you. >All other relevant details about Heroes are also there. > >If you wish to participate, it helps us if you pre-register by >e-mail at >registration at asltourneys.co.uk. >Don't forget, if you're planning on staying at the tourney venue - >the Hotel Skye again this year - you need to book direct with the >hotel. Contact details are on the website. > >This year, a parallel 'starter kit tourney' has been suggested, >which we'll run if there's sufficient interest. If you don't fancy >the main tourney and would like to consider taking part, please >contact us the above e-mail address (pre-registration not necessary >at this stage). > >As ever, please spread the word and pass this on to your asl >buddies, post on forums etc. Anyone wishing to be added to our >mailing list - please let us know. > >We hope to see plenty of you there. > >Cheers > >The Heroes team > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From aslml at vftt.co.uk Sun Jan 20 15:25:59 2008 From: aslml at vftt.co.uk (Pete Phillipps) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:25:59 -0000 Subject: [Aslml] ASL VFTT72 out now In-Reply-To: <20080119163023.997D648002@diego.dreamhost.com> References: <20080119163023.997D648002@diego.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hello Everyone, The new issue of VFTT is out now, and can be downloaded from www.vftt.co.uk/vftt72.pdf. Now that's out the way, it's time to turn my attention to HEROES 2008, which takes place in Blackpool from 7-9 March. Details can be found at http://www.vftt.co.uk/heroesdetails.asp, along with a link to download the booking form. Pete "Many [wargame] battles have been fought and won by soldiers nourished on beer" - Frederick the Great, 1777 Download VIEW FROM THE TRENCHES (Britain's Premier ASL Journal) free from http://www.vftt.co.uk Get the latest news about HEROES(ASL in Blackpool) at http://www.vftt.co.uk/heroesdetails.asp Get the latest news about INTENSIVE FIRE (Britain's biggest ASL tournament) at http://www.vftt.co.uk/ifdetails.asp Get the latest UK ASL Tournament news at http://www.asltourneys.co.uk Support the best at http://www.manutd From aslbunker at yahoo.com Wed Jan 23 11:19:17 2008 From: aslbunker at yahoo.com (Vic Provost) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:19:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Aslml] Dispatches from the Bunker January '08 Update Message-ID: <467982.10129.qm@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Greetings from the Bunker to all at the Main ASL Mailing List. Well, after a long wait, VotG is finally out and on its way to everyone from MMP. Kudos to everyone there and to the whole network of people who had anything to do with getting this incredible HASL published, starting with Designer and Developer Tom Morin and Map Guru Don Petros. Great Job everybody! Please remember that Dispatch #23 is devoted to VotG and although it turned out to be a year and a half premature in its release all the content in there on VotG is just as relevant today as it was the day it was printed, including the 3 scenarios that Tom designed specifically for the newsletter. As for what is going on currently, We have been working diligently on Issue #26, due out in March at the Nor'Easter Tournament. Playtesting is ongoing, if anyone wants to get in on the action and help yourself to a free issue with a report submitted before the February 9th deadline, please let me know and I'll e-mail you a pdf. copy of whichever of the 3 scenarios you want to try. The scenarios are concentrating on the ETO this time with 2 actions in Italy and one combined arms beast on the Eastern Front. They are: Commandos Hold Fast: This is the first of 3 actions Adam Lunney submitted to me a couple years ago, with a couple platoons of British Commandos holding the SSR defined Olive Groves on Board 35 against 2 company sized waves of Panzergrenadiers from the 16th Panzer Div. A 6 lb 57L AT Gun gives the Brits a fighting chance and will give the German Panzer IVs caution in their advance. The German has a big edge in numbers but never count out those Commandos. Murphy Go Help the British: The 3rd in the ongoing Fabulous Thunderbirds series, this action sees them trying to wrest the high ground from tough German defenders from the Herman Goering Div. on Boards 9 & 15. It's uphill all the way but with numbers in their favor and a nice light armor matchup highlighting this fine design from Joe Gochinski. Shock at Kamenewo: Tom Morin's latest is an Eastern Front, combined arms melee with 18 Russian rifle squads and 10 various heavy and medium tanks attacking mixed elements of the 4th Panzer Div. spread out along 1/2 boards 4, 11, & 44. What makes this one unique is the Russian armor sets up HIP before bursting out of the woods. The German has a mix of elite and 1st line rifles along with medium tanks, 88L AA and 105 ART guns to combat the Russian onslaught. This has been a huge hit at the club and shows much promise. Also on tap for #26 will be another detailed analysis by Jim Torkelson, he'll be looking at VotG's Monster Scenario The First Bid. It is similar in size to 'The Last Bid' from RB and can see maneuver that will very well encompass the entire map as the Germans invade downtown Stalingrad. Speaking of which, after spending considerable time on Making a Mess with Fire and Rubble, Carl Nogueira will now put his focus on the Urban Battlefield in Stalingrad with elements of RB and VotG to be examined in an ongoing series of tips for our BackPage. I'll have analysis of the 3 new scenarios and more ASL home-cooking with a wrap-up on the Bunker Bash and Albany tourney and a preview of the upcoming Nor'Easter tournament. Of course the current Issue, #25 is our 10th Anniversary Issue and shipped out this past October. We have the usual 3 scenarios with details below. Our own Jim Torkelson has yet another excellent scenario analysis, this one on HOBs OB8 Bloody Bobruisk. Our Tactical Tips guru Carl Nogueira continues more Terrain mayhem in the final segment on Fire in his Making a Mess Tactical Tips Series. I have local tourney news as usual. The Scenarios we have lined up are: Acorns in the Fire: Andy Clarke brings us an ETO combined arms action from New Years Day '45 with a company of GIs supported by 4 Shermans trying to clear a German defense, aided by a couple PzIVJ panzers, from the Board 19 crossroads. The US needs to make maximum use of its SMOKE and Firepower advantage to clean up this pocket of die hard defenders. Looks like this could be on many tourney lists down the line. Housing Crash: Ralph McDonald brings us more Eastern Front nastiness as a company of Ubermen SS 8-3-8 Assault Engineers crashes into a reinforced company of Russian Riflemen on Deluxe Boards b & d. Taking buildings on the other side of the SSR Anti- tank Ditch is the German Mission and the Russian defenders are in no mood to give them up. Nasty Tournament sized DASL fun. Heroic Defense of Wake - An intense PTO slugfest that Tom Morin has exhumed from his filing cabinet. We were going to submit it to the venerable On All Fronts over 12 years ago. It is the Japanese Night Assault on Wake Island 12 days after the initial attempt to take the Island was a complete disaster. This time they are assaulting the beach at night in this PTO mini-monster with 2 companies worth of 4-4-8s attacking a very mixed USA defense which has Marines, ad-hoc Naval personnel and even civilians manning the plethora of machine guns and ordnance available. It starts at night and sees twilight and eventually day as the fight proceeds inland over now 8 very hard fought turns. For those unfamiliar with Dispatches, it is a 12 page Amateur ASL Newsletter that comes to the greater ASL Community twice a year, sometime in March and September courtesy of the New England ASL Community, including the Bunker Crew and our yasl Brothers in Southern New England. It typically contains 3 New Scenarios, Analysis of each one, a Main Article on any aspect of the game system, Tactical Tips, ASL News and Tournament Updates from our region. You may now view samples of our work at the ASL Webdex at: http://www.aslwebdex.net/ The specific page is at: http://www.aslwebdex.net/aslwebdex/Publishers/Bunker/bunker.html Thanks to Larry Memmott for giving us space there, you can view pdf. files of Issues #01 & #09 there, including the always popular Mighty Maus scenario. IF this sounds like Battle Hardening by your 10-2 Leader to that omnipotent 10-3 Uber-Leader, 4 Issue Subscriptions and ALL Back-Issues are still available and here is how to get yours (all prices include S & H and PayPal Fees. Also Please make all checks/money orders out to Vic Provost, NOT Dispatches from the Bunker): 4 Issue Subscription (Starting with current Issue #25): In the USA: $15.00 (Check/Money Order/Cash or PayPal) Outside the States: $18.00 (International Postal Money Order,USA Currency or PayPal only. Sorry, NO Credit Cards, Personal Checks not drawn on a USA Bank, NO Western Union, this is an Old School Amateur Effort and our Hobby, not a Full Time 'Business' :-) If using PayPal please send your remittance in USA Funds via PayPal to: PinkFloydFan1954 at aol.com If using PayPal please also notify me here at aslbunker at aol.com with your shipping address and just what you are ordering, Thanks. Back-Issues and Bundles Back-Issues: Issue #01 is our FREE Preview Issue available with any New Subscription or upon request with a #10 SASE. All other Back-Issues (#02 - #24) are $4.00 Each in the USA or $4.50 Each outside the States. All 25 Issues in print (No subscription): $55.00 in the USA, $60.00 outside the states. The Works: All 25 Issues plus a 4 Issue Subscription, starting with current Issue #25 (28 Issues in total) $65.00 in the USA, $70.00 outside the states Make your remittance out to Vic Provost and send to: Vic Provost Dispatches from the Bunker P.O. Box 2024 Hinsdale MA 01235 USA Any other questions just reply to my e-mail at: aslbunker at aol.com and I'll do my best to answer your query. Thanks again to all my Contributors, Playtesters, and Subscribers, without whom the Newsletter would not be possible. Thanks for your time and consideration, your ASL Comrade, Vic Provost. 'SSR: All Occupants of the Bunker Location are considered Fanatic [A10.8]' ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From daniel.earhart at us.army.mil Thu Jan 24 04:32:13 2008 From: daniel.earhart at us.army.mil (Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:32:13 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? Message-ID: Thanks everyone for the previous answers. Ran across the following situations and wasn't sure what to do. 1. Do multiple hits (C8.3 table) apply to hits vs infantry targets also? 2. Does a 37* INF SW require a crew to be considered to be manned by qualified infantry? 3. If an AFV performs an overrun vs a hex containing an enemy AFV in melee/CC with a squad, is the squad also attacked by the overrunning AFV? 4. Is assembly of a SW considered a concealment loss activity? 5. Is an unloading squad with a 5PP SW, still eligible for all 4 MP (to include vehicles movement) as if a squad with no SW? Dan From shmcbee at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 24 05:27:43 2008 From: shmcbee at bellsouth.net (Steve McBee) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:27:43 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003b01c85e8c$e81ac500$6101a8c0@Steve> 1. Yes. C3.8 (I guess this is what you actually mean), first sentence says Vehicle/Infantry Target Type. 2. I don't think so, but I don't have my chapter H handy. Check the notes there. 4. Yes, it falls under "Other Activity". 5. No, it only has 2 MF (vehicles have MP) available for movement, but I think it is considered to have 4 MF available for purposes of unloading. Hope that helps and that someone has their rulebook to check my answers as well as #3. Steve McBee Fairview, TN -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net] On Behalf Of Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 6:32 AM To: aslml-aslml.net Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? Thanks everyone for the previous answers. Ran across the following situations and wasn't sure what to do. 1. Do multiple hits (C8.3 table) apply to hits vs infantry targets also? 2. Does a 37* INF SW require a crew to be considered to be manned by qualified infantry? 3. If an AFV performs an overrun vs a hex containing an enemy AFV in melee/CC with a squad, is the squad also attacked by the overrunning AFV? 4. Is assembly of a SW considered a concealment loss activity? 5. Is an unloading squad with a 5PP SW, still eligible for all 4 MP (to include vehicles movement) as if a squad with no SW? Dan _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se Thu Jan 24 05:41:34 2008 From: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?Klas=20Malmstr=F6m?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:41:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <550031.50399.qm@web27902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, --- "Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC" wrote: > > 2. Does a 37* INF SW require a crew to be considered to be manned by > qualified infantry? The French one does (I'm not sure it any other OB has one). French Ord. Note 8 and French mutli-applicable ordnance note C applies to this weapon: "C As signified by "crew" on the counter, this weapon requires a friendly crew in order to be used without the applicable penalties of A21.11-.13. Its BPV includes a crew as per H1.3." Regards, Klas Malmstrom ------------------------------------------------------- Klas Malmstrom Linkoping, Sweden Email: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se ------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________ S?k efter k?rleken! Hitta din tvillingsj?l p? Yahoo! Dejting: http://se.meetic.yahoo.net/index.php?mtcmk=148757 From fred at sdccu.net Thu Jan 24 09:24:52 2008 From: fred at sdccu.net (Fred) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:24:52 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? In-Reply-To: <550031.50399.qm@web27902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <550031.50399.qm@web27902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4798C9E4.60109@sdccu.net> As Klas pointed out some 37* INF SW require crews to be considered manned by qualified infantry, others (such as the US) don't require crews. (The C note on the US version means that it has canister.) Fred Klas Malmstr?m wrote: > Hi, > > --- "Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC" > wrote: > >> 2. Does a 37* INF SW require a crew to be considered to be manned by >> qualified infantry? > > The French one does (I'm not sure it any other OB has one). French Ord. Note 8 > and French mutli-applicable ordnance note C applies to this weapon: > > "C As signified by "crew" on the counter, this weapon requires a friendly crew > in order to be used without the applicable penalties of A21.11-.13. Its BPV > includes a crew as per H1.3." > > Regards, > Klas Malmstrom > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Klas Malmstrom > Linkoping, Sweden > Email: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > ___________________________________________________ > S?k efter k?rleken! > Hitta din tvillingsj?l p? Yahoo! Dejting: http://se.meetic.yahoo.net/index.php?mtcmk=148757 > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > From klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se Thu Jan 24 11:29:22 2008 From: klas_malmstrom at yahoo.se (=?windows-1252?Q?Klas_Malmstr=F6m?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:29:22 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? In-Reply-To: <4798C9E4.60109@sdccu.net> References: <550031.50399.qm@web27902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4798C9E4.60109@sdccu.net> Message-ID: <4798E712.70803@yahoo.se> Hi, Fred skrev: > As Klas pointed out some 37* INF SW require crews to be considered > manned by qualified infantry, others (such as the US) don't require > crews. (The C note on the US version means that it has canister.) But Note D which applies to this piece of Ordnance says: "D This weapon requires a cres (C12.2) or two SMC (C12.21) in order to be used without penalty - as signified by ?crew? on the counter. (Therefore C12.2-.21 apply to the T32 37mm Manpack Gun as well as to the RCL.) See A15.23 for hero usage. The BPV of this weapon includes a crew as per H1.3." So the U.S. version alos requires a crew (or two SMC). Regards, Klas Malmstrom From pfph at thuring.com Thu Jan 24 11:31:04 2008 From: pfph at thuring.com (lars thuring) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:31:04 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4798E778.2080100@thuring.com> Earhart, Daniel R Sr CW4 RES USAR USARC wrote: > Thanks everyone for the previous answers. Ran across the following situations and wasn't sure what to do. > > 1. Do multiple hits (C8.3 table) apply to hits vs infantry targets also? > > 2. Does a 37* INF SW require a crew to be considered to be manned by qualified infantry? In general no since it is a SW (C2.1). The French one does as Klas pointed out, as does the IJA one (Japanese Ordnance Note 9). It also has "crew" on the backside. > 3. If an AFV performs an overrun vs a hex containing an enemy AFV in melee/CC with a squad, is the squad also attacked by the overrunning AFV? Judging from the last sentence in A11.15 (".. all friendly and enemy units in that Location must be attacked..") I would say yes. The only EXC is for Sniper attacks. regards, Lars > 4. Is assembly of a SW considered a concealment loss activity? > > 5. Is an unloading squad with a 5PP SW, still eligible for all 4 MP (to include vehicles movement) as if a squad with no SW? > > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > -- "2b|!2b?" (Hamlet) ASL - http://www.thuring.com/asl Quotes - http://www.thuring.com/life/quotes.html From pyoung at cwhealth.net Thu Jan 24 14:38:52 2008 From: pyoung at cwhealth.net (Peter Young) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:38:52 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] More challenging questions, Perhaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4799137C.6040402@cwhealth.net> > 5. Is an unloading squad with a 5PP SW, still eligible for all 4 MP (to include vehicles movement) as if a squad with no SW? Nope, its 4 MF are reduced to 2 MF because of the SW. The squad expends 1 MF to dismount and would lose its other remaining MF if the vehicle had expended at least 1/4 of its MP prior to unloading. Pete From stance.nixon at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 16:26:42 2008 From: stance.nixon at gmail.com (Stance Nixon) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:26:42 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] Spray fire Message-ID: Okay here is the situation. I am using spray fire at a target on level one of a hill. There is anopther target on level 2 in the adjacent hex. Can I hit both targets? They meet the requirement of sharing a hex side. The rules cover two levels of a building in the SAME hex, but nothing about hills. Stance From daveolie at eastlink.ca Fri Jan 25 17:36:18 2008 From: daveolie at eastlink.ca (David Olie) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:36:18 -0400 Subject: [Aslml] Spray fire References: Message-ID: <00a901c85fbb$ddd44be0$7f7bd718@SR1820NX> Stance wrote: > Okay here is the situation. I am using spray fire at a target on level > one of a hill. There is anopther target on level 2 in the adjacent > hex. Can I hit both targets? > They meet the requirement of sharing a hex side. The rules cover two > levels of a building in the SAME hex, but nothing about hills. Your two target hexes share a common hexside (A9.5), so this looks perfectly legit to me. The only reason buildings are mentioned in the rules, as I see it, is to make clear that two levels within one level of each other can be a target of Spraying Fire even though they DON'T "share a common hexside". Note that there's nothing in the rule about the two targets being adjacent or ADJACENT; in the building exception "adjacent" is put in quotes because it's perfectly possible for two levels within one level of each other to NOT be ADJACENT if there's no connecting stairwell. David "Caps Lock is a great function, no?" Olie From doary at rogers.com Sat Jan 26 15:29:08 2008 From: doary at rogers.com (doary) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:29:08 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Spray fire References: <00a901c85fbb$ddd44be0$7f7bd718@SR1820NX> Message-ID: <007901c86073$3fc379e0$6401a8c0@HelenDesktop> Great question Stance. It vexes me. At first blush, A9.5 does appear to permit one to fire at any and all targets whose Locations "share the same hexside" (i.e., are "adjacent" [A.8]). In other words, targets do not have be in ADJACENT Locations to qualify, and therefore may occupy different elevations and hexes. The sole caveat to spray firing at targets occupying different elevations and hexes appears to be specific to buildings. Moreover, there is nothing explicitly prohibiting fire at two same level locations of two different building hexes such as 24V3(L1) and 24U4(L2). If the game designers felt that spray firing into two building hexes on a "diagonal" axis was unrealistic, did they intend to prohibit all such fire? The rule book appears mute on this point. But let's look at an example that doesn't seem to add up. Could one Spray Fire at 24V2/V3? Technically, all levels of V3 share the same hexside with V2 and therefore meet the requirements of A9.5. Counter-intuitively, this would permit a player to Spray Fire at V2 and ANY one level (i.e. Location) of V3. Why would this Spray Fire attack differ fundamentally from an attack that targeted the ground floors of 24U4/V3? It shouldn't of course, unless one interprets the rule too narrowly, presupposing that the "elevation" qualifier applies only to fire at two different BUILDING hexes. In truth, I suspect that Spray Fire is restricted to Locations that a) lie on the same "horizontal" or "vertical" plane, and b) are within one hex/level of each other. If not, how do we square the circle in cases involving elevation differences in excess of one level and where buildings are absent? Are targets either side of a Double Crest Line (15Q4/5) or a Cliff (24E8/E9) so unlike those in our building examples above? Is it any easier to Spray Fire at a Level 0 open ground hex and an adjacent Level 3 (cliff) hex than at the ground and first levels of two adjacent buildings? If not, then presumably Spray Fire generally is verboten against targets occupying different elevations. And thus the ONLY permitted case of "vertical" Spray Fire is between targets within one level of each other in the same hex (e.g. within the same building hex; at targets on and underneath the bridge in 24F6; or even targets occupying different Locations in RB-D38 [i.e. IN the Culvert and on the road]). Chris, in for a penny, in for a Loonie, Doary ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Olie" To: "Stance Nixon" ; Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [Aslml] Spray fire > Stance wrote: > > >> Okay here is the situation. I am using spray fire at a target on level >> one of a hill. There is anopther target on level 2 in the adjacent >> hex. Can I hit both targets? >> They meet the requirement of sharing a hex side. The rules cover two >> levels of a building in the SAME hex, but nothing about hills. > > Your two target hexes share a common hexside (A9.5), so this looks > perfectly > legit to me. The only reason buildings are mentioned in the rules, as I > see > it, is to make clear that two levels within one level of each other can be > a > target of Spraying Fire even though they DON'T "share a common hexside". > Note that there's nothing in the rule about the two targets being adjacent > or ADJACENT; in the building exception "adjacent" is put in quotes because > it's perfectly possible for two levels within one level of each other to > NOT > be ADJACENT if there's no connecting stairwell. > > David "Caps Lock is a great function, no?" Olie > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From payne-asl2 at nc.rr.com Sat Jan 26 15:15:18 2008 From: payne-asl2 at nc.rr.com (Chuck Payne) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:15:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Aslml] Bitter Ender Tournamanent Information, March 28-30, 2008 Message-ID: Hello ASL'ers, I am finally getting around to sending out the information for the 2008 Bitter Ender ASL tournament. It is at the same hotel as last year, The Raleigh Crabtree. The dates are Friday, March 28th to Sunday, March 30th. The cost is $32 pre-registration or $40 at the door (for the weekend, daily cost is half). The flier information is at http://home.nc.rr.com/cpayneasl/ . Please check it out for all of the details. Please pass this email on to anyone who might be interested that is not on this email. I look forward to seeing everyone at this year's Bitter Ender. I will be a great time for all who come. Newbie or vet or been out awhile, it doesn't matter. Come and have a great weekend of gaming with a wonderful group of guys. Roll Low, Chuck Payne From payne-asl2 at nc.rr.com Sat Jan 26 15:19:33 2008 From: payne-asl2 at nc.rr.com (Chuck Payne) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:19:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Aslml] Valor of the Guards Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I must be the last to know that Valor of the Guards is out. But the list has been silent about this. :-O Why? Does this mean this list about dead? Regards, Chuck From payne-asl2 at nc.rr.com Sat Jan 26 15:16:51 2008 From: payne-asl2 at nc.rr.com (Chuck Payne) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:16:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Aslml] Trying to contact Charles Trout Message-ID: Hi, I am trying to get in touch with Charles Trout. If you have an email for him, please respond to me off-line. Thanks, Chuck Payne From mtrodgers99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 15:36:01 2008 From: mtrodgers99 at gmail.com (M Rodgers) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:36:01 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Valor of the Guards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> All the VOTG talk is at Gamesquads forms or ConsimWorld. Not sure how many people are still tracking the ASLML. On Jan 26, 2008 6:19 PM, Chuck Payne wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I must be the last to know that Valor of the Guards is out. But the list > has been silent about this. :-O Why? > > Does this mean this list about dead? > > Regards, > > Chuck > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > -- Michael Rodgers Montreal From garciagd at velocity.net Sat Jan 26 15:55:03 2008 From: garciagd at velocity.net (Roger Whelan) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:55:03 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Valor of the Guards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I do not think many people are following the ASLML anymore.... I think CSW and ALS Forums have taken its place..... Peace Roger -----Original Message----- From: aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net [mailto:aslml-bounces at lists.aslml.net]On Behalf Of Chuck Payne Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 6:20 PM To: aslml at aslml.net Subject: [Aslml] Valor of the Guards Hi Everyone, I must be the last to know that Valor of the Guards is out. But the list has been silent about this. :-O Why? Does this mean this list about dead? Regards, Chuck _______________________________________________ Aslml mailing list Aslml at lists.aslml.net http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From cfago at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 26 18:54:59 2008 From: cfago at ix.netcom.com (Carl D. Fago) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:54:59 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [Aslml] Valor of the Guards Message-ID: <11022208.1201402499906.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Because I haven't seen it in the mail yet. Only seen at WO as far as I can tell so far. Carl -----Original Message----- >From: Chuck Payne >Sent: Jan 26, 2008 6:19 PM >To: aslml at aslml.net >Subject: [Aslml] Valor of the Guards > >Hi Everyone, > > I must be the last to know that Valor of the Guards is out. But the list >has been silent about this. :-O Why? > > Does this mean this list about dead? > >Regards, > >Chuck > >_______________________________________________ >Aslml mailing list >Aslml at lists.aslml.net >http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From borelalain at yahoo.fr Sun Jan 27 03:33:24 2008 From: borelalain at yahoo.fr (Alain Borel) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:33:24 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] Valor of the Guards In-Reply-To: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr> On 1/27/08 12:36 AM, M Rodgers wrote: > All the VOTG talk is at Gamesquads forms or ConsimWorld. Not sure how > many people are still tracking the ASLML. > > Well, count me as one... But I'm still waiting for my copy so there isn't much to discuss yet :-) Alain Borel CH-1022 Chavannes (Switzerland) From cryo at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 27 06:55:51 2008 From: cryo at xs4all.nl (Albert van Poppel) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:55:51 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> <479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> Well, there you go... Code of Bushido & A Bridge Too Far for a starting price of just 1$ - no catch... Might be you lucky day if you need an out-of-print ASL item.. ABTF: http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-A-Bridge-Too-Far-NEW_W0QQitemZ110218791106QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Code of Bushido: http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-Code-of-Bushido_W0QQitemZ110218795497QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Mounted board 42 & 43 NEW from AP1 : http://cgi.ebay.com/ASL-SQUAD-LEADER-Mounted-board-42-43-from-ActionPack1_W0QQitemZ110218780362QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Cheers Albert. From swfancher at mindspring.com Sun Jan 27 07:25:03 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:25:03 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale In-Reply-To: <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> <479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr> <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080127102110.02187d00@pop.mindspring.com> Let's see where they end up after 10 days though! :-) I auctioned 3 copies of CoB and 2 copies of ABTF on eBay. The auctions all started at $1, but I offered a Buy-It-Now option of $200 for CoB and $175 for ABTF. All 5 items were sold via BIN in less than 2 days. So I don't expect these to stay at $1 for very long! Good luck with the auction. Be well. Seth At 09:55 AM 1/27/2008, Albert van Poppel wrote: >Well, there you go... Code of Bushido & A Bridge Too Far for a starting >price of just 1$ - no catch... > >Might be you lucky day if you need an out-of-print ASL item.. > > > >ABTF: >http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-A-Bridge-Too-Far-NEW_W0QQitemZ110218791106QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >Code of Bushido: >http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-Code-of-Bushido_W0QQitemZ110218795497QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >Mounted board 42 & 43 NEW from AP1 : >http://cgi.ebay.com/ASL-SQUAD-LEADER-Mounted-board-42-43-from-ActionPack1_W0QQitemZ110218780362QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >Cheers >Albert. > >_______________________________________________ >Aslml mailing list >Aslml at lists.aslml.net >http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 09:14:35 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:14:35 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com><479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr><000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> <6.2.0.14.2.20080127102110.02187d00@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: Please, please don't get me started - blood is about to shoot out of my eyeballs! AV FtW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth W Fancher" To: "Albert van Poppel" ; Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale > Let's see where they end up after 10 days though! :-) > > I auctioned 3 copies of CoB and 2 copies of ABTF on eBay. The auctions > all > started at $1, but I offered a Buy-It-Now option of $200 for CoB and $175 > for ABTF. All 5 items were sold via BIN in less than 2 days. So I don't > expect these to stay at $1 for very long! > > Good luck with the auction. Be well. > Seth > > > At 09:55 AM 1/27/2008, Albert van Poppel wrote: >>Well, there you go... Code of Bushido & A Bridge Too Far for a starting >>price of just 1$ - no catch... >> >>Might be you lucky day if you need an out-of-print ASL item.. >> >> >> >>ABTF: >>http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-A-Bridge-Too-Far-NEW_W0QQitemZ110218791106QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >>Code of Bushido: >>http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-Code-of-Bushido_W0QQitemZ110218795497QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >>Mounted board 42 & 43 NEW from AP1 : >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ASL-SQUAD-LEADER-Mounted-board-42-43-from-ActionPack1_W0QQitemZ110218780362QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >>Cheers >>Albert. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Aslml mailing list >>Aslml at lists.aslml.net >>http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >>To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > From stevenlinton at bigpond.com Sun Jan 27 12:57:19 2008 From: stevenlinton at bigpond.com (Steven Linton) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:57:19 +1100 Subject: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale In-Reply-To: <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> <479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr> <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> Message-ID: You forgot to mention that the 2 boards are $99. YGTBFK Steve On 28/01/2008, at 1:55 AM, Albert van Poppel wrote: > Well, there you go... Code of Bushido & A Bridge Too Far for a > starting > price of just 1$ - no catch... > > Might be you lucky day if you need an out-of-print ASL item.. > > > > ABTF: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-A-Bridge-Too-Far- > NEW_W0QQitemZ110218791106QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ > 1QQcmdZViewItem > > Code of Bushido: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Squad-Leader-ASL-Code-of- > Bushido_W0QQitemZ110218795497QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZWDVWQ > QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Mounted board 42 & 43 NEW from AP1 : > http://cgi.ebay.com/ASL-SQUAD-LEADER-Mounted-board-42-43-from- > ActionPack1_W0QQitemZ110218780362QQihZ001QQcategoryZ2558QQssPageNameZW > DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Cheers > Albert. > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From cardboard.killer at verizon.net Sun Jan 27 15:39:28 2008 From: cardboard.killer at verizon.net (Brian W) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:39:28 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20080127102110.02187d00@pop.mindspring.com> References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> <479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr> <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> <6.2.0.14.2.20080127102110.02187d00@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000601c8613d$dc380fa0$94a82ee0$@killer@verizon.net> >I auctioned 3 copies of CoB and 2 copies of ABTF on eBay. The auctions >all started at $1, but I offered a Buy-It-Now option of $200 for CoB >and $175 for ABTF I am not sure it is related, but it seems to me that prices for CoB and ABTF have peaked on ebay and are now on the downslide, which makes me wonder how much of a market there is for a new version of CoB. From arlenvanek at hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 16:13:19 2008 From: arlenvanek at hotmail.com (Arlen Vanek) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:13:19 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com><479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr> <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600><6.2.0.14.2.20080127102110.02187d00@pop.mindspring.com> <000601c8613d$dc380fa0$94a82ee0$@killer@verizon.net> Message-ID: maybe they are on the downslide (I don't believe they are - one just sold for $175) because people realize that there is one going to be on pre-order very soon. I would like to buy one and plan to once it goes on sale but I sure can't afford $175, I wish I could - even if I could I'm not sure I would pay it. I just want to point out the error of your comment. If they are going for 2,3 even 4 times their original price then obviously there is a market. When was the last time someone was able to buy this module from the publisher? And how many new players have there been? My god! Blood is shooting from my eyeballs!!! AV FtW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian W" To: Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale > >>I auctioned 3 copies of CoB and 2 copies of ABTF on eBay. The auctions >>all started at $1, but I offered a Buy-It-Now option of $200 for CoB >>and $175 for ABTF > > I am not sure it is related, but it seems to me that prices for CoB and > ABTF > have peaked on ebay and are now on the downslide, which makes me wonder > how > much of a market there is for a new version of CoB. > > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > From Allexenberg_Mike at emc.com Mon Jan 28 10:12:03 2008 From: Allexenberg_Mike at emc.com (Allexenberg_Mike at emc.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:12:03 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] NorEaster XII Scenarios Lists - Updated for VotG and MoFo Message-ID: Nor'Easter XII Scenario List Main Tournament Fri Afternoon: AP18 Village of the Damned RPT9 Shelling the Sivash DB52 Jungle Rats SP145 The Reluctant Tiger FrF9 The Abbeville Bridgehead Fri Night: DB59 Grind Them to Dust VotG02 Russe! Drown in the Volga CH37 Forgotten Years FrF14 Patton Breaks Loose SP151 Bulanov Rebuked Sat Morning: G7 Bring up the Guns BC8 From Desert to Jungle DB56 Breakout from Stalingrad-I HP2 Lousy Crossroads SP147 The Zebra Mission Sat Afternoon: DB60 Acorns in the Fire CH32 The Kibbutz (Israeli balance - E2) CH151 Race for Freedom VotG11 A Dangerous Possibility RBF28 Breakthrough Sat Night: VotG08 Hammer and Nail VotG16 Under Murderous Fire RPT3 Varosmajor Grange TT6 Fruit and Nuts SP144 One More Day of Freedom Sunday: DB49 Wetlet (see special balance below) VotG14 Pavlov's House AP19 Winter of Their Discontent CH49 High Danger SP138 Lacking Coordination DB49 Wetlet Special Balance - delete one 238 and four concealment counters from the Japanese OOB. Saturday ASL Mini-Tournament Round 1: DB58 Vossenack Church VotG13 Escape from Komosol Park FrF16 Last Orders (German balance) Round 2: FrF11 Rostov Redemption TAC72 Combat for a Tower CH41 Test of Nerves Round 3: SP14 The Green House TAC51 Strength Through Unity VotG09 Eviction Notice Valor of the Guards MoFo Round 1 (Friday): VotG05 The Specialists' House VotG06 Enter Dragan VotG10 The Darkest Day Round 2 (Saturday): J??? Raid on Rodimtsev VotG12 Siberian Shockwave VotG17 On the Verge of Extinction "Raid on Rodimtsev" was submitted with VotG but did not make the final cut; it is instead planned for a future Journal. Copies will be provided to MoFo participants. From swfancher at mindspring.com Sun Jan 27 18:22:56 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:22:56 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] ABTF & Code of Bushido & board 42+43 for sale In-Reply-To: References: <2b8228f00801261536j218d7561sb141c73b078d685f@mail.gmail.com> <479C6C04.3050401@yahoo.fr> <000701c860f4$b5d3c320$2a01a8c0@medion2600> <6.2.0.14.2.20080127102110.02187d00@pop.mindspring.com> <000601c8613d$dc380fa0$94a82ee0$@killer@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080127211731.02172530@pop.mindspring.com> The CoB's I actually mis-priced...think I could have got ~$250 easily, but I did the first BIN for $200 and then felt compelled to do the same for the others. But I do think given the speed with which they went...you would have to be lucky to get them for less. Let's see where the 10-day auctions wind up. On a more positive note (assuming you're interested in lower prices) - I have a KGP2, AP#1 and AP#2 that I bought last spring/summer. I've had them listed with reserves of 80% of what I paid and had no hits. So perhaps there is less demand. But then, I used a reserve, so its not like the games are moving. Rather they sit on a shelf collecting dust. Fundamentally I agree that MMP should focus on getting the core modules (or at the very least the non-ASLRB rule chapters) back in print and available. I know that probably 90+% of listers will disagree - since they have the core modules and want "new" product. But, if you want to grow the game and bring in new players...you need the rules for all of the different modules available. Be well. Seth At 07:13 PM 1/27/2008, Arlen Vanek wrote: >maybe they are on the downslide (I don't believe they are - one just sold >for $175) because people realize that there is one going to be on pre-order >very soon. I would like to buy one and plan to once it goes on sale but I >sure can't afford $175, I wish I could - even if I could I'm not sure I >would pay it. I just want to point out the error of your comment. If they >are going for 2,3 even 4 times their original price then obviously there is >a market. > >When was the last time someone was able to buy this module from the >publisher? And how many new players have there been? > >My god! Blood is shooting from my eyeballs!!! > >AV >FtW From bpickeri at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:00:15 2008 From: bpickeri at gmail.com (Brian Pickering) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:00:15 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] VotG has arrived in the Pac NW Message-ID: <885c41aa0801281800u5006ca6kde2be7ce63a8a28e@mail.gmail.com> Quick, check if Hell has frozen over. Seattle did today, sorta. ;-) -- Brian Pickering bpickeri at gmail.com From charleeh at earthlink.net Tue Jan 29 07:07:34 2008 From: charleeh at earthlink.net (Charlie Hamilton) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:07:34 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] NorEaster XII - register now! Message-ID: <008e01c86288$ad98dd90$6401a8c0@COMMUNISA07QK9> Hi gang, It's time to make plans for NorEaster XII, held this March 14-16, 2008 in Marlboro, Mass. Register on-line at http://asl.yankeegamers.org. >>>>> Nor'Easter XII <<<<< New England's ASL Tournament March 14-16, 2008 GENERAL INFORMATION: Doors open at noon on Friday and close at 8:00 PM on Sunday. All players from beginners to experts are encouraged to play, and the emphasis is on having fun. All attendees are automatically entered into a random drawing for fabulous door prizes! MAIN TOURNAMENT: Starts Friday afternoon. The tournament is Swiss format, with prizes for first through third place. Players choose from five scenarios per round. Five or six rounds of play are required to select the winners. One or two rounds are played Friday, three Saturday, and one or two Sunday. MINI TOURNEYS: There is a two round armor-only mini on Friday, limited to 4 people. There is a three round mini-tourney starting Saturday morning, limited to 8 people. Finally, the Big MoFo will be running all weekend. Three rounds of LARGE scenario fun, featuring Valor of the Guards, one played per day, limited to 8 players. Sign up for these on the website. HOTEL INFORMATION: Room rates are $102 a night. Extra cots are available. Register by Feb. 15, 2008 and tell them you're with the Nor'Easter to get this rate. The Best Western Royal Plaza phone number is 508-460-0700. The hotel is on Rte 20, a few blocks west of Interstate 495 - 45 minutes west of Boston. If coming from the airport, or by train, make reservations with the Marlborough-Westborough Airport Shuttle (800-242-0064). TOURNEY INFORMATION: Check http://asl.yankeegamers.org for the latest information. Updates posted to the YASL and ASL mailing lists. REGISTRATION INFORMATION: Pre-registration cost is $35 until Feb. 15, 2008. Otherwise it costs $40 at the door or $25 for Saturday only. Register on-line at http://asl.yankeegamers.org, or clip and mail this form and a check made out to "Mike Allexenberg" to: Nor'Easter XII c/o Mike Allexenberg 27 Juniper Brook Rd Northborough, MA 01532 _________________________________________________________________________________ First Name:_________________________ Last Name:_________________________________ Address:________________________ City:______________ State: _____ Zip:__________ Tel:___________________________ T-shirts ($20) S____ M____ L____ XL____ XXL____ E-mail:__________________________ From aslbunker at yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 16:50:21 2008 From: aslbunker at yahoo.com (Vic Provost) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:50:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Aslml] NorEaster XII Scenarios Lists - Latest on VotG and MoFo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <501485.28281.qm@web32606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello listers and prospective participants in the VotG Mo-Fo. I have been handed the reigns on this special mini-tournament and as we now seem to have more interest than anticipated we will make it a 3 round mini with VotG7 Storming the Station subbing for VotG6 Enter Dragan in the First Round and 'Dragan' moving to Sunday Morning as the de-facto choice for the Championship. So if you are indeed interested in 1 of the 4 remaining places in the VotG Mo-Fo (field of 8 Max) please go to the Yankee ASL Website at: http://209.150.59.123:8080/index2.htm and register for the Nor'Easter and specifically for the Mo-Fo Tournament. Hope to see you there, your ASL Comrade, Vic. --- Allexenberg_Mike at emc.com wrote: > Nor'Easter XII Scenario List > > Main Tournament > > Fri Afternoon: > AP18 Village of the Damned > RPT9 Shelling the Sivash > DB52 Jungle Rats > SP145 The Reluctant Tiger > FrF9 The Abbeville Bridgehead > > Fri Night: > DB59 Grind Them to Dust > VotG02 Russe! Drown in the Volga > CH37 Forgotten Years > FrF14 Patton Breaks Loose > SP151 Bulanov Rebuked > > Sat Morning: > G7 Bring up the Guns > BC8 From Desert to Jungle > DB56 Breakout from Stalingrad-I > HP2 Lousy Crossroads > SP147 The Zebra Mission > > Sat Afternoon: > DB60 Acorns in the Fire > CH32 The Kibbutz (Israeli balance - E2) > CH151 Race for Freedom > VotG11 A Dangerous Possibility > RBF28 Breakthrough > > Sat Night: > VotG08 Hammer and Nail > VotG16 Under Murderous Fire > RPT3 Varosmajor Grange > TT6 Fruit and Nuts > SP144 One More Day of Freedom > > Sunday: > DB49 Wetlet (see special balance below) > VotG14 Pavlov's House > AP19 Winter of Their Discontent > CH49 High Danger > SP138 Lacking Coordination > > DB49 Wetlet Special Balance - delete one 238 and > four > concealment counters from the Japanese OOB. > > Saturday ASL Mini-Tournament > > Round 1: > DB58 Vossenack Church > VotG13 Escape from Komosol Park > FrF16 Last Orders (German balance) > > Round 2: > FrF11 Rostov Redemption > TAC72 Combat for a Tower > CH41 Test of Nerves > > Round 3: > SP14 The Green House > TAC51 Strength Through Unity > VotG09 Eviction Notice > > Valor of the Guards MoFo > > Round 1 (Friday): > VotG05 The Specialists' House > VotG06 Enter Dragan > VotG10 The Darkest Day > > Round 2 (Saturday): > J??? Raid on Rodimtsev > VotG12 Siberian Shockwave > VotG17 On the Verge of Extinction > > "Raid on Rodimtsev" was submitted with VotG but > did not make the final cut; it is instead planned > for a future Journal. Copies will be provided > to MoFo participants. > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email > webmaster at aslml.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tippecanoe8 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 29 17:29:48 2008 From: tippecanoe8 at sbcglobal.net (Pat Collins) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:29:48 -0600 Subject: [Aslml] Code of Bushido References: Message-ID: <003501c862df$9b569170$0200a8c0@YOURCA979DF923> > Fundamentally I agree that MMP should focus on getting the core modules > (or > at the very least the non-ASLRB rule chapters) back in print and > available. I know that probably 90+% of listers will disagree - since > they > have the core modules and want "new" product. But, if you want to grow > the > game and bring in new players...you need the rules for all of the > different > modules available. Actually, I sort of disagree. I am an "SK" only player at the moment. However, I DO have the Rules, and YANKS. But I do not see any reason to buy ALL the modules. In fact, I'd MUCH prefer the rules and some counters be made available, and then I can get the boards I want. I can buy them a little at a time. I can understand why a long term ASL'er would want new product. I dont blame them. My way eases the financial burden on MMP, AND lets there be more new stuff around. No reason MMP could not print off a "Pacific" set with the Rules from CoB, a SK style selection of counters, and new scenarios using the boards (reprinted) from CoB. Regards, Pat Last Played: Hunt for the Bismarck, America Triumphant, Alsace 45 From swfancher at mindspring.com Tue Jan 29 18:39:45 2008 From: swfancher at mindspring.com (Seth W Fancher) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:39:45 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Code of Bushido In-Reply-To: <003501c862df$9b569170$0200a8c0@YOURCA979DF923> References: <003501c862df$9b569170$0200a8c0@YOURCA979DF923> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20080129213356.02175c30@pop.mindspring.com> Welcome to ASL Pat! I don't think we don't disagree really. Although I may not have communicated that clearly. In the day of VASL and online play, I think that the most important thing (and optimal decision) for MMP to make available is the "non-core" rules sections (i.e. Chapters F, G, O) and Chapter H so that DTO, PTO and RB are accessible to all players regardless of the availability of the complete module. So I agree with you that the complete module is not necessary to grow the game. But...I don't think MMP is going to do this. I think they would prefer to reprint the whole module. So that would be a second choice IMO. Either way - I am afraid that as you gain experience you will want to try out PTO, maybe DTO, possibly RB or some other CG. If you can't get the rules to these, they are not accessible, even though the boards and counters are all available through VASL. Be well. Seth At 08:29 PM 1/29/2008, Pat Collins wrote: > > Fundamentally I agree that MMP should focus on getting the core modules > > (or > > at the very least the non-ASLRB rule chapters) back in print and > > available. I know that probably 90+% of listers will disagree - since > > they > > have the core modules and want "new" product. But, if you want to grow > > the > > game and bring in new players...you need the rules for all of the > > different > > modules available. > > >Actually, I sort of disagree. I am an "SK" only player at the moment. >However, I DO have the Rules, and YANKS. > >But I do not see any reason to buy ALL the modules. In fact, I'd MUCH prefer >the rules and some counters be made available, and then I can get the boards >I want. I can buy them a little at a time. > >I can understand why a long term ASL'er would want new product. I dont blame >them. > >My way eases the financial burden on MMP, AND lets there be more new stuff >around. No reason MMP could not print off a "Pacific" set with the Rules >from CoB, a SK style selection of counters, and new scenarios using the >boards (reprinted) from CoB. > >Regards, Pat >Last Played: Hunt for the Bismarck, America Triumphant, Alsace 45 > >_______________________________________________ >Aslml mailing list >Aslml at lists.aslml.net >http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net >To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net From janusz.maxe at unf.se Wed Jan 30 09:49:17 2008 From: janusz.maxe at unf.se (Janusz Maxe) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:49:17 +0100 Subject: [Aslml] Gun duel vs special ammo Message-ID: Attacker AFV is moving, and defender AFV declares a DFF APCR shot. Attacker declares gun duel. DRM's are equal, so defender gets to turn to face the attacker. Then attacker gets lowest DR, hits but only immobilises the defender (passes bail out TC) through front CA. Then defenders looks at the DR and realises he failed to get APCR. What happens? Is the CA change negated, thus a hit through some onther facing is achieved? Is the whole gun duel negated, and never happened? Is the defender forced ot fire some other ammo instead? Would the answer be different if either side wins the DRM-contest, thus clearly shooting first? If defender wins, but doesn't get special ammo, is the attacker still forced to fire because his declaration of GD? If the attacker wins, but doesn't kill his opponent, what happens if the defender doesn't get APCR? On a similar note, if the defender is immob'ed and thus cannot turn to fire at the attacker, is he then considered not to have fired? If he declared fire as a non-turret vehicle, get's immob'ed, is he forced to turn the turret he actually has to take the declared shot? Gun duels are strange Janusz From fred at sdccu.net Wed Jan 30 18:32:03 2008 From: fred at sdccu.net (Fred) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:32:03 -0800 Subject: [Aslml] Gun duel vs special ammo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A13323.9090000@sdccu.net> The Gun is out of that (APCR) ammo and must make a new TH DR. Use the new DR to determine who shot first, etc. Fred Janusz Maxe wrote: > Attacker AFV is moving, and defender AFV declares a DFF APCR shot. Attacker declares gun duel. > DRM's are equal, so defender gets to turn to face the attacker. Then attacker gets lowest DR, hits but only immobilises the defender (passes bail out TC) through front CA. Then defenders looks at the DR and realises he failed to get APCR. What happens? > Is the CA change negated, thus a hit through some onther facing is achieved? > Is the whole gun duel negated, and never happened? > Is the defender forced ot fire some other ammo instead? > > Would the answer be different if either side wins the DRM-contest, thus clearly shooting first? > If defender wins, but doesn't get special ammo, is the attacker still forced to fire because his declaration of GD? > If the attacker wins, but doesn't kill his opponent, what happens if the defender doesn't get APCR? > > > On a similar note, if the defender is immob'ed and thus cannot turn to fire at the attacker, is he then considered not to have fired? > If he declared fire as a non-turret vehicle, get's immob'ed, is he forced to turn the turret he actually has to take the declared shot? > > Gun duels are strange > Janusz > _______________________________________________ > Aslml mailing list > Aslml at lists.aslml.net > http://lists.aslml.net/listinfo.cgi/aslml-aslml.net > To unsubscribe, visit the above website, or email webmaster at aslml.net > > From cardboard.killer at verizon.net Thu Jan 31 02:47:32 2008 From: cardboard.killer at verizon.net (Brian W) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:47:32 -0500 Subject: [Aslml] Gun duel vs special ammo In-Reply-To: <47A13323.9090000@sdccu.net> References: <47A13323.9090000@sdccu.net> Message-ID: <000301c863f6$af26a830$0d73f890$@killer@verizon.net> >The Gun is out of that (APCR) ammo and must make a new TH DR. >Use the new DR to determine who shot first, etc. I agree that once the attacker has rolled the dice, the defender is committed to the gun duel even if special ammo fails. Probably a better solution in the future is to make any special ammo DR before the enemy rolls his dice. Then make the decision whether to stop the gun duel (ie. No DFF shot) or continue with normal ammo.